Cult episodes

[rivergirl]

Hi snoringdog,

I've been following your thread with a lot of interest (and empathy) although I haven't replied to your posts yet.

The desire to find meaning and a place to belong seems pretty universal, even if we don't look for those in the same places. I wondered why you feel shame? Is it because you participated in this group and/or lingering shame instilled by the group? Or something else? If you're still figuring that out or don't feel comfortable sharing, I understand.

Also, it's a weird coincidence I guess that you happened to mention that movie, because when I watched the trailer just now I realized that it's about the specific group that I was involved with when I was 15-25 years old. I'm hesitant to overuse the concept of PTSD, but that's what I felt like I was experiencing seeing the preview, in addition to nostalgia and sadness about the family & friends who were involved and have now passed or become distant due to our religious/political differences. There's a baptism scene filmed at a place called Pirate's Cove, and that's where I was baptized in the ocean when I was 15. The leader/pastor played by Kelsey Grammer ("Papa Chuck" Smith) was a huge influence over my life and family.
Sorry to get off track here, the trailer just made me feel like I was seeing flashbacks of my own past.

Hope you're doing well.

rg

[snoringdog]

Hello Rivergirl

I wondered why you feel shame? Is it because you participated in this group and/or lingering shame instilled by the group? Or something else? If you're still figuring that out or don't feel comfortable sharing, I understand.

I've basically made peace with my past, but when I think of how naive I was, and yet so self-assured, I'm embarrassed. A couple of summers ago my next door neighbor's son-in-law was around quite a bit, and he was one of those - born-again evangelical types. Nice enough to us, but I saw the same sort of cockiness I'm familiar with. (Had to laugh. He had his very young daughter out in the pool, and was asking her if she wanted to play with the "Pirates of the Carribean toy", or "Jonah the Whale". I think she chose the pirate

Also, it's a weird coincidence I guess that you happened to mention that movie, because when I watched the trailer just now I realized that it's about the specific group that I was involved with when I was 15-25 years old. I'm hesitant to overuse the concept of PTSD, but that's what I felt like I was experiencing seeing the preview, in addition to nostalgia and sadness about the family & friends who were involved and have now passed or become distant due to our religious/political differences.

Wow. I'll watch with interest. But really there were so, so many groups then - must have been something in the water. One of my projects is to take some time to list them all.

This group seems to rather mainstream, no? "Ours" was less so, although the teaching was pretty orthodox. An intellectual look at scripture with none of the absolutism (like seven literal days for creation, etc. Dinosaurs in the Garden, etc) ) Many things taken as figurative rather than literal..).

About the PTSD, yes, that may be a bit much, but I still get a little anxious when I think of these things. Always wondered about how a conversation might go with someone I knew from back then. If they're still in, what... If they've left, what....

Sorry to get off track here, the trailer just made me feel like I was seeing flashbacks of my own past.

Hope you're doing well.

No problem at all and I'm doing well thanks. But there have been a few things that have happened recently that brought this stuff back to mind, and I figured I'd unpack it a bit....

Stay tuned.

[snoringdog]

Hello Rivergirl,

Well, I saw the movie yesterday and found it interesting.
Turns out we were maybe riding the tail of the wave (that crested?) 1971 when it took place. Such social ferment all around the country.

(And just finished watching a documentary called "1971-The-year-that-music-changed-everything" and some parts are tough sledding. I was 14 at the time and remember so much).

https://www.vulture.com/2021/05/review-1971-the-year-that-music-changed-everything-doc.html

And I looked up the Time magazine article referenced at the end of the movie and am looking forward to reading it.

https://content.time.com/time/magazine/0,9263,7601710621,00.html

It was an engrossing couple of hours at the movie house. Beautiful imagery and music, and a somewhat relatable story. I shed a tear or two at a couple of points.

In Hollywood fashion though, it was a simplified and gauzy look back at a tumultuous time, only hinting at what might come after the initial shine fades- the difficulties, peer pressure, the power struggles, etc.

My experience was quite different than depicted in the movie.

In NYC in the late 70's the atmosphere was more like you'll see in movies like "Midnight Cowboy" or "The Taking of Pelham 123". Pretty dark and gritty. We lived in apartments and went to weekly meetings.

(The group started in Allentown PA. When they first moved things to NYC, everyone lived in lofts for a while, believe it or not. Soon after, moved to a number of apartments in some pretty ratty buildings. This was a few years before I arrived).
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We used to do something like this at my annual church camp, and I always chose to participate, felt like more of a hazing....

What was the point of this? was it to prove something?
---------------------------

So, now that I've sat with my impressions of the movie for a day or so, it's on to reading the reviews.

And sorting thru the anxiety-filled thoughts I jotted down a couple of weeks ago when this segment from my past last came to mind....

SD

[rivergirl]

Thank you for sharing about your experiences and your impressions of the movie, snoringdog. I read your posts last night and have been thinking about them since then. I want to post a reply when I have more time later today.

[snoringdog]

So, a couple of weeks ago I was on the road with a work colleague who I've known for quite a few years. It was a couple of tiring all-nighters, and we went out to dinner later in the week.
In conversation, he related how his parents had become Jehovah's Witnesses when he was very young, and how their fanaticism caused the kids grief.
(Not celebrating birthdays was one weird thing I remember him saying. And no one in their church would come to his wedding for some other fanatical reason. Maybe because the bride wasn't a JW or something. They were shunned).

So, for whatever reason, I mentioned my own "sojourn into the wilderness" after high school, and the shame I feel about it. It was rather liberating though.
If I hadn't, it felt like I would have been withholding something for no reason.
He was quite understanding about it, actually a non-issue to him. (Maybe being from the Bible Belt had something to do with it).

Anyway it felt good.

[manuel_moe_g]

This is great, SD!

[Mental Fairy]

Hi SD

I am so glad your posted this. You must feel proud at how far your have come. The other person would have also appreciated it.

[snoringdog]

Still working up the energy to review the hurried scribblings I made when this part of my past resurfaced in a visceral way... Feelings have subsided, but since I still get a bit tense when thinking about it, I think it warrants a sit-down with myself.

Just returned from an overnighter to Salt Lake City for business. When returning to the airport, I saw a group of young men wearing black dress shirts and black pants standing at the curb... Surely a group of young Mormons traveling to or from one of their "missionary" trips...

Hmm... I was like that once.... Young, naive, foolish, but cocksure about my convictions.... (But *not* part of an "officially sanctioned" group)

Sigh...

[snoringdog]

Crossed paths with a small group of young men dressed as Hasidim a couple of weeks ago, as I was heading into the office.

They stopped to ask for directions to a local performing arts center, and I was a bit taken aback by how young and fresh they were, up close.

Hmm...I used to be young and stupid like that. Now I'm just old and stupid I guess

[snoringdog]

Just heard this short interview on the radio while in to work. The author just wrote a memoir called "Testimony"

https://www.npr.org/2023/04/18/1170581231/jon-ward-says-writing-about-the-evangelical-movement-released-bottled-up-emotion

My dad grew up Catholic. My mom grew up Presbyterian. They were both caught up in something called the Jesus movement or the Jesus revolution. And it was a national dynamic. A lot of people were looking for something fresh and new in religion, and I think they were also disenchanted with the way the country had gone during the late 60s.

There seems to be a look-back on this period recently that's coinciding with my own..