This isn't so much a "do others feel this way" as me wanting to hear your stories about difficulties with friendships.
I feel like I've always struggled with friendships. I used to blame it on the fact that I moved countries 4 times by the time I was 10 years old. Always coming in after others had developed friendships. But after being in the same province for 20+ years and STILL feeling this way, there must be more to it.
I was definitely picked on and I also took part in it (oh did it feel good though when it wasn't directed at me), I do have remorse for my actions as a teen. Then again, we all struggled and tried to do the best we could. I never had a "best friend". I had some friends, but they always considered someone else their "best friend". Flitted from group to group in school, never fully fitting into one. Looking back I see that has actually helped me be able to relate to many different types of groups, so there is a positive aspect to it. Still, tough to feel like you never had that ONE person who had your back. I was constantly in fear of what people would do to hurt me, what secrets might be used against me. From experience - kids are assholes. Especially small town kids. I kept a lot of things private, reaching out to new friends who didn't know my history to get my pain out. I didn't trust anyone, since it always seemed to backfire.
When I was in my 2 year technical college program I watched people around me form these tight lasting bonds (10 years after, many are still good friends/partnered). I tried to form friendships, I just didn't relate to so many of them and/or they simply didn't like me. For those two years I would really try to get involved with various groups of people and never succeeded. After the first few rounds, I would say to myself.. "What's the point, I'm trying to be their friend but they obviously don't want me to around - not going to bother". I had to tell myself that SO MANY TIMES. I didn't go out to the bar nights that were planned, was that it? I couldn't afford to go & since no one really wanted me around - I would have to go on my own. Terrible motivation. Couple years after completion I tried to "friend" one girl who I thought I got along with and she immediately blocked me. Ok then.
And then there's the toxicity factor…
One girl I was close to in high school was incredibly toxic. We used to fight every spring - then make up in the fall. She was a liar, desperate for attention that was obvious at that young age. She would lie about EVERYTHING! After months I was finally honest with a mutual friend about what was happening - that I never knew what the truth was in this group I was spending time with. Was what I was experiencing real and the other girl was lying? Turns out yes. I kept my distance after that, even though she was still a part of my life due to social/family associations (my BF was her step-cousin).
10 years later another friendship falls apart. Someone I had known for nearly 20 years, but always drifted to and from in our friendship. I had a hard time dealing with her throughout the years, as did others. Could handle her in "small doses". Would run into her every few years and hang out sometimes. Ended up living with her for 16 months, moved out cause I was starting to have a hard time with her. Also were doing different things in our lives and needed a change. But a few years later shit fell apart. Became too entwined with her and her BF, got her a job at my work… I had tried to talk to her about things that bothered me previously and she would just get defensive. She was also a liar - manipulative, sneaky. Other people felt the same way, so I know it wasn't a perception thing on my part. I needed space as well as to change things in my life that directly conflicted with how she was living hers. Partying mostly. Things grew strained, my life (including losing my job) fell to shit and the friendship dissolved. I know I played a part in not saying something directly, but I also knew from experience that it was nearly impossible to get through to her. Anyhow - a lot more stupidly dramatic shit went down involving her BF's friends, who had gotten to know me and really liked me. Lies, story telling, demanding they not speak to me. It was really immature stuff. I stepped out and kept my distance, didn't interact with that whole group for over a year… until I ran into someone I had immediately bonded with. We are now good friends, while this ex-friend CONTINUES to spew toxicity to people around her. It seeps into my life now and then, which is annoying as fuck, I want her gone completely, but still she is still lurking in the shadow.
Mere months ago I lost another friend - wasn't really close to, but had hoped to grow in that way. I have written about it on here before. During my breakup she got really close to my ex. When I tried to get all the nasty thoughts (the breakup, the strained friendship) out of my head on a blog page she emailed me to tell me how shitty I was to do that, even though she lied about how she got the information. Her confrontational emails were destroying my life. I couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, was fucking up at my job. Every time I saw the new email alert I would almost vomit from the anxiety of another cruelly worded message. I told her to stop - I wouldn't accept them anymore. The relationship between her and my ex was the main reason I got off of FB. I didn't want to see it and they weren't going to stop - so I removed myself. Again. She had some incredibly mean things to say to me when I complained about being bummed on my birthday. Which is pretty normal, a lot of people get bummed on their birthdays. She's now blocked on all social media. Done with it.
*I should mention that I reached out to an old friend of hers that I met at the same time, since they were no longer talking. Her behaviour was remarkably similar in both instances. Cruel, accusatory, self-righteous emails. This old mutual friend also walked away, said she couldn't handle the emails anymore*
I have written this post about 5 times now and delete it cause it's so long - no matter how I try, I can't explain myself succinctly…
TL;DR I feel like I'm stuck in this asinine revolving door of junior high behaviour. But why is it that it keeps happening to me? Am I the problem and not dealing with people properly, or am I ending up near toxic people? I do have a handful of people that I consider good friends now. A couple that I can count on, most that are "too busy" if I really needed them. Or not, and I'm just paranoid or something…
I feel like I am constantly grasping at forming solid connections. I do believe some of it comes from looking to people who do live mostly surface lives, which isn't happening as much now that I'm older. Not involved in big groups of people that are mostly partying together. I see people at work laughing and kidding around in a way that I can't. I have felt this way for so long, that I am standing two feet out of the circle, always trying to get in closer.
This feeling has driven me into isolation a lot. I am constantly on my own when not at work. A lot of it sitting in front of the computer, with the TV on. Forcing myself to get out of my apartment during the weekend.
There's also the very real possibility that I'm just not that easy to get along with. Not really likeable. Also, why the fuck do I care? Well… it's nice to have at least one person who will just hang out with you… that aren't busy with kids or their closer "best" friends.
Ugh - wtf is wrong with me. Why do I care so much if people like me. Why can't I just be content to be on my own like I brag about. I do LOVE a lot of my solitary lifestyle, so why can't I just be happy with that. Oh right - possibly because a lot of happiness consists of connections with loved ones :/
Thanks for reading.
Friendship Follies
Re: Friendship Follies
It's essentially like abusers being able to find people who are susceptible to being abused. I firmly believe that we get into patterns of seeking out friends who will treat us badly. I also tended toward people who were only happy when making others feel bad. For years!
You can make a point of befriending different personality types than before. Look for people who share a hobby or something. Actively - and immediately - avoid those who are negative or treat you badly. Stop listening to ex's friends. Stop reading social media comments from people who hate you. You CAN shut unwanted people from your life. Stop letting them win!
You can make a point of befriending different personality types than before. Look for people who share a hobby or something. Actively - and immediately - avoid those who are negative or treat you badly. Stop listening to ex's friends. Stop reading social media comments from people who hate you. You CAN shut unwanted people from your life. Stop letting them win!
Re: Friendship Follies
Hey Liz! Thanks for making this thread. What a coincidence because I've been feeling such a disconnect from friends lately, I came here specifically to post a topic called "Do I even have friends?" but what you started covers the subject quite nicely! I'll admit it, I'm an anti-social person. I enjoy time alone in front of television or computer screens more than I value any person in my life, I'm sorry to say. As we all know, that's no healthy way to live, and on a daily basis I become starved for human contact. Yet it seems so fleeting, everytime I gather around the people I love, it always seems to take so much for our feelings and moods to sync up. One of us is up, the other's down. One is excited, the other's feeling cynical. Every now and then, I'll stay up to the early morning hours with my brother or my dad, trading ideas, telling stories, cracking jokes, getting into these really deep discussions where we feel like we've cracked some code in how to deal with eahcother. Without exception, these nights are always fueled by alcohol. Pot and alcohol are the extent of my substance abuse, I know it's not good for you. Please spare me the lecture, everybody. Those nights only come once in a blue moon, where I really feel like I'm appreciated and accepted. Then the hangover the next day tends to erase it from memory. I think it's sad that the only time I really feel validated by another living breathing person tends to happen on those nights, when both parties are drunk off their asses. Life can be such a grind, and I think we need those times with friends and family where just cut loose, reminisce, dream about the future, etc in order to stay sane. I just wish I could have these real intense conversations with other people, outside of my family. I hate how friendship is sort of exclusive to one area in life. You show your friends a certain side, your loved ones see a different side (usally uglier, despite appearances). I can say right now in my life that I have only one close friend. He struggles a lot more than me with his mental health, he has deeper family and financial issues, and to be frank about it- his mind just works differently than mine. We have different values in terms of how we like to spend our time, but we've known eachother for 20 years and so much about us is inherently the same. He is my brother, and like an older brother, sometimes I'm disappointed in him for his shortcomings, but I only want to see him succeed and he always inspires me to do better.
I just have this inkling of a feeling that maybe spending idle time with people is overrated. Like 'Herself' said, I think it's more important, productive, and also creates a deeper bond if you DO things together, and share a hobby. This is something I'm just coming to realize, because so much of my life has been spent in solitude, pondering ideas about writing and art but so rarely ever really getting to doing them. Other people in my life seem to do nothing but encourage me, to see a product of all this time spent in fantasyland, it's almost like they see it as a reward for dealing with me for all these years. "Alright, you're obviously not showing much promise in the social department, I know you're good at something, somewhere. Cough it up." I don't wanna get to wishy washy here, but really in the end it comes to down what you love. Maybe what you love is more important than who you love. Because you can choose what you love, but the people you come across in your life tend to just be in it together with you by happenstance. That's why we relate so closely to them. but since when did 'being related' become the end all be all in relationship? Maybe you hate the place you're from, the situations you had to live through, the people who became forced into our lives at certain points. Maybe being around these people you feel stuck with just remind you how much you really hate yourself.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I think I've explained myself enough for now. I'm not trying to be a downer, I just really want to figure this 'relationship' thing out. And I'm only talking about MALE companionship by the way. The female thing is a whole nother can of worms...
anyways, thanks again Liz, and anyone else who bothered reading. I'd love to hear other's input on the topic.
I just have this inkling of a feeling that maybe spending idle time with people is overrated. Like 'Herself' said, I think it's more important, productive, and also creates a deeper bond if you DO things together, and share a hobby. This is something I'm just coming to realize, because so much of my life has been spent in solitude, pondering ideas about writing and art but so rarely ever really getting to doing them. Other people in my life seem to do nothing but encourage me, to see a product of all this time spent in fantasyland, it's almost like they see it as a reward for dealing with me for all these years. "Alright, you're obviously not showing much promise in the social department, I know you're good at something, somewhere. Cough it up." I don't wanna get to wishy washy here, but really in the end it comes to down what you love. Maybe what you love is more important than who you love. Because you can choose what you love, but the people you come across in your life tend to just be in it together with you by happenstance. That's why we relate so closely to them. but since when did 'being related' become the end all be all in relationship? Maybe you hate the place you're from, the situations you had to live through, the people who became forced into our lives at certain points. Maybe being around these people you feel stuck with just remind you how much you really hate yourself.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I think I've explained myself enough for now. I'm not trying to be a downer, I just really want to figure this 'relationship' thing out. And I'm only talking about MALE companionship by the way. The female thing is a whole nother can of worms...
anyways, thanks again Liz, and anyone else who bothered reading. I'd love to hear other's input on the topic.
Re: Friendship Follies
First up, Liz, always a pleasure to see you posting.
Agreed x100.
For me, sometimes love and hate become one in the same.
For both of my oldest friends, I hate them more than I love them, but I love them in a narrow, specific way.
Remember Mr. Burns saying: "I keep my friends close, and my enemies closer"?
Now I understand that: for both of my once-best friends-now-frenemies, we all have enough shit on each other to make it uglier to break up than to stay "friends".
Mr. Chuck Klosterman, writing in Esquire, wrote about the difference between an archenemy and a nemesis. I will paste it below.
RECOGNIZING YOUR NEMESIS
At some point in the past, this person was (arguably) your best friend.
You have punched this person in the face.
If invited, you would go to this person's wedding and give him a spice rack, but you would secretly hope that his marriage ends in a bitter, public divorce.
People who barely know both of you assume you are close friends; people who know both of you intimately suspect that you profoundly dislike each other.
If your archenemy tried to kill you, this person would attempt to stop him.
RECOGNIZING YOUR ARCHENEMY
Every time you talk to this person, you lie.
If you meet someone who has the same first name as this person, you immediately like him less.
The satisfaction you feel from your own success pales in comparison to the despair you feel at this person's triumphs, even if those triumphs are completely unrelated to your life.
If this person slept with your girlfriend, she would never be attractive to you again.
Even if this person's girlfriend was a hateful bitch, you would sleep with her out of spite.
http://www.esquire.com/features/chuck-k ... PR_AMERICA
Read more: The Importance of Being Hated - Esquire
Follow us: @Esquiremag on Twitter | Esquire on Facebook
Visit us at Esquire.com
Agreed x100.
For me, sometimes love and hate become one in the same.
For both of my oldest friends, I hate them more than I love them, but I love them in a narrow, specific way.
Remember Mr. Burns saying: "I keep my friends close, and my enemies closer"?
Now I understand that: for both of my once-best friends-now-frenemies, we all have enough shit on each other to make it uglier to break up than to stay "friends".
Mr. Chuck Klosterman, writing in Esquire, wrote about the difference between an archenemy and a nemesis. I will paste it below.
RECOGNIZING YOUR NEMESIS
At some point in the past, this person was (arguably) your best friend.
You have punched this person in the face.
If invited, you would go to this person's wedding and give him a spice rack, but you would secretly hope that his marriage ends in a bitter, public divorce.
People who barely know both of you assume you are close friends; people who know both of you intimately suspect that you profoundly dislike each other.
If your archenemy tried to kill you, this person would attempt to stop him.
RECOGNIZING YOUR ARCHENEMY
Every time you talk to this person, you lie.
If you meet someone who has the same first name as this person, you immediately like him less.
The satisfaction you feel from your own success pales in comparison to the despair you feel at this person's triumphs, even if those triumphs are completely unrelated to your life.
If this person slept with your girlfriend, she would never be attractive to you again.
Even if this person's girlfriend was a hateful bitch, you would sleep with her out of spite.
http://www.esquire.com/features/chuck-k ... PR_AMERICA
Read more: The Importance of Being Hated - Esquire
Follow us: @Esquiremag on Twitter | Esquire on Facebook
Visit us at Esquire.com
Work is love made visible. -Kahlil Gibran
A person with a "why" can endure any "how". -Viktor Frankl
Which is better: to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? -Skyrim
A person with a "why" can endure any "how". -Viktor Frankl
Which is better: to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? -Skyrim
Re: Friendship Follies
Thanks folks! It's been a lonely weekend for me, but getting through it. Especially since ya'll took the time to respond. 
Herself Said:
Jose Said:
Ha thanks Oak, good advice!
Over the last few years I have worked pretty hard at getting out and doing the things I want to do and make me happy. Unfortunately a lot of it has been on my own and my city isn't very friendly. Last night actually, I went out to a comedy show on my own. Not the first time and definitely not the last, but it's tough. It's tough to get the motivation to get out and stand in line by myself with pairs and groups all around me. Deciding not to binge drink has some affect on my social nature, but I'd rather that than reliance on booze. Often I'm so nervous I can barely form a sentence, but give me a couple of drinks and I'm your best friend. Not from being drunk, just way less fear after a beer. Hell, I even wear my nerdy shirts out to show people the types of things I'm interested in as a potential ice breaker. I came to realize, unfortunately, that they would have to fess up to looking at my chest.
I do a lot of stuff on my own, forever open to meeting new people who share similar interests. (I hope my appearance reflects this) In fact, thinking about trying online dating... again. Hasn't worked before, but worth a shot?
Herself Said:
I just now realized that it ties in nicely to stuff my mom would do. I am so used to it by now that it takes a while for me to see it in others. I usually have a really good gut instinct about people, but if it's familiar what's to notice...I also tended toward people who were only happy when making others feel bad. For years!
Jose Said:
Oh I totally get this. And I am with you on the substances. I haven't been drinking like I used to, which is probably why this stuff has been lingering in my brain. Not masking it by getting "accidentally drunk"...Every now and then, I'll stay up to the early morning hours with my brother or my dad, trading ideas, telling stories, cracking jokes, getting into these really deep discussions where we feel like we've cracked some code in how to deal with each other. Without exception, these nights are always fueled by alcohol.
I have been putting more effort into just lazy doodling or writing. I know I can kinda do it, and I do enjoy it. Should take out my camera again soon actually......so much of my life has been spent in solitude, pondering ideas about writing and art but so rarely ever really getting to doing them
Ha thanks Oak, good advice!
Over the last few years I have worked pretty hard at getting out and doing the things I want to do and make me happy. Unfortunately a lot of it has been on my own and my city isn't very friendly. Last night actually, I went out to a comedy show on my own. Not the first time and definitely not the last, but it's tough. It's tough to get the motivation to get out and stand in line by myself with pairs and groups all around me. Deciding not to binge drink has some affect on my social nature, but I'd rather that than reliance on booze. Often I'm so nervous I can barely form a sentence, but give me a couple of drinks and I'm your best friend. Not from being drunk, just way less fear after a beer. Hell, I even wear my nerdy shirts out to show people the types of things I'm interested in as a potential ice breaker. I came to realize, unfortunately, that they would have to fess up to looking at my chest.
I do a lot of stuff on my own, forever open to meeting new people who share similar interests. (I hope my appearance reflects this) In fact, thinking about trying online dating... again. Hasn't worked before, but worth a shot?
Re: Friendship Follies
You go, Liz! Give that online dating a try again. Keep us posted.
If you are as kind and smart in real life as you are in this forum, you'll do great.
Speaking of geeking and dating, may I share a
story?
A young woman gave me signals she was interested, so I invited her to join my friends and I to play Catan today. She declined
But my other friends are playing Munchkin, so I am going to invite the cutie at the bank. Hopefully I used up all the bad luck geek/daters like you and I had to experience.
If you are as kind and smart in real life as you are in this forum, you'll do great.
Speaking of geeking and dating, may I share a
story?A young woman gave me signals she was interested, so I invited her to join my friends and I to play Catan today. She declined
But my other friends are playing Munchkin, so I am going to invite the cutie at the bank. Hopefully I used up all the bad luck geek/daters like you and I had to experience.
Work is love made visible. -Kahlil Gibran
A person with a "why" can endure any "how". -Viktor Frankl
Which is better: to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? -Skyrim
A person with a "why" can endure any "how". -Viktor Frankl
Which is better: to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? -Skyrim
Re: Friendship Follies
(oops! You are Lzie. My bad.)
Work is love made visible. -Kahlil Gibran
A person with a "why" can endure any "how". -Viktor Frankl
Which is better: to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? -Skyrim
A person with a "why" can endure any "how". -Viktor Frankl
Which is better: to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? -Skyrim
Re: Friendship Follies
Oops II: I conflated "nerd" with "geek".
Will Wheaton and Patton Oswalt should discuss the difference, if they haven't already. I'd love to hear that riff.
Will Wheaton and Patton Oswalt should discuss the difference, if they haven't already. I'd love to hear that riff.
Work is love made visible. -Kahlil Gibran
A person with a "why" can endure any "how". -Viktor Frankl
Which is better: to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? -Skyrim
A person with a "why" can endure any "how". -Viktor Frankl
Which is better: to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? -Skyrim
Re: Friendship Follies
Liz, ( I'm just gonna call you that )
I can really relate to that feeling of going to an event alone with couples all around. I take standup comedy so seriously as an artform for how much it has helped me through the lonely times and made me laugh hysterically when I'm by myself. So if I was to go to a standup show ( which I haven't in years because of friends consistently letting me down- will get into that later ) it would most likely be to enjoy the comedian than the company of a friend, even though of course I would want someone with me to experience it and talk about it after... When I see people together attending a show by someone I love, it kinda makes me envious that they get to share something that I mostly appreciate in private, but then- so much awful, uncomfortable, disgusting, and creepy things can come out of comics mouth that I think I'd prefer being alone than have to swallow my laughter so my date doesn't think "you agree with that?" In any case, I always consider doing things out in public alone like a small triumph because of how agoraphobia and social anxiety debilitated me for years to the point where I was in complete fear of the outside world. So maybe being a fly on the wall in the dating scene is actually a good way to gage what kind of date you'd want to go on with someone, and to observe the chemistry that people have when they're out in public. Always great to notice the couple who seem to hate eachother no matter how 'cute' they are together and go "ugh, I never wanna be like that." So gratifying.
About the online dating thing, I've been considering it too. I already have a profile but haven't quite made a serious attempt to meet someone because something about the whole process seems so superficial in how people look at your picture and profile and decide in moments whether they want to talk to you or not. I really value my anonymity online and it's hard to put myself out there to complete strangers and think of all the people reading it going "Look at this guy. What a tool." I'm interested in trying it because of how relatively painless it is compared to walking up to someone and asking them out in the real world. I guess I just find it hard to sell myself as a desirable person, I'd rather let them decide for themselves, you know?
...I'm sure there's an online dating thread where I can read up on people's experiences with this. anyways, thanks for listening and have a great weekend!
I can really relate to that feeling of going to an event alone with couples all around. I take standup comedy so seriously as an artform for how much it has helped me through the lonely times and made me laugh hysterically when I'm by myself. So if I was to go to a standup show ( which I haven't in years because of friends consistently letting me down- will get into that later ) it would most likely be to enjoy the comedian than the company of a friend, even though of course I would want someone with me to experience it and talk about it after... When I see people together attending a show by someone I love, it kinda makes me envious that they get to share something that I mostly appreciate in private, but then- so much awful, uncomfortable, disgusting, and creepy things can come out of comics mouth that I think I'd prefer being alone than have to swallow my laughter so my date doesn't think "you agree with that?" In any case, I always consider doing things out in public alone like a small triumph because of how agoraphobia and social anxiety debilitated me for years to the point where I was in complete fear of the outside world. So maybe being a fly on the wall in the dating scene is actually a good way to gage what kind of date you'd want to go on with someone, and to observe the chemistry that people have when they're out in public. Always great to notice the couple who seem to hate eachother no matter how 'cute' they are together and go "ugh, I never wanna be like that." So gratifying.
About the online dating thing, I've been considering it too. I already have a profile but haven't quite made a serious attempt to meet someone because something about the whole process seems so superficial in how people look at your picture and profile and decide in moments whether they want to talk to you or not. I really value my anonymity online and it's hard to put myself out there to complete strangers and think of all the people reading it going "Look at this guy. What a tool." I'm interested in trying it because of how relatively painless it is compared to walking up to someone and asking them out in the real world. I guess I just find it hard to sell myself as a desirable person, I'd rather let them decide for themselves, you know?
...I'm sure there's an online dating thread where I can read up on people's experiences with this. anyways, thanks for listening and have a great weekend!