Sex,love,marriage,babies,porn,strippers,reality/fantasy

[oak]

Agreed weary!

I would certainly add that a number of people are genuinely monogamous.

And marriage/monogamy would be wise evolutionarily to give a stable environment to raise children.

And of course, the trope is that rakes end up alone, while the happily married people have someone to love them all their lives.

Oftentimes the flip side of one truth is equally true.

Also, I conflated "beauty" and "attractiveness" in my post; I know for a fact IRL that they are not the same thing!

(That is, while "beauty" and "attractiveness" Venn diagrams can overlap, they certainly don't have to!)

All that aside, my friend, a tough question for you. (And feel free to tell me to go to hell for asking it) :

The unfair reality is that a post-pubescent male can father children at any age. Women cannot.

What are the odds that your wife will "get it together" enough to be the kind of mother you'd want her to be?

If yes, will she "get it together" before menopause?

(As an imperfect person, I recognize your wife is doing the best she can, and that your marriage is none of my business.)

[weary]

What are the odds that your wife will "get it together" enough to be the kind of mother you'd want her to be?
If yes, will she "get it together" before menopause?

Ah, the crux of my dilemma. This is my greatest anxiety, and has been for a number of years. If I am being honest and objective about it, I am afraid the answer is no.
That is the realization that I had several years ago. It was because of that realization, I think, that I was susceptible to the beauty and attractiveness of my dancer friend. A part of my brain, whether I realized or acknowledged it, had given up hope.
Since then, I have really tried to regain hope. At times, I have been encouraged. But lately, not as much. It could have to do with also being discouraged about other behaviors of my wife, or my career struggles. But I don't think this is going to happen for us as this point. She turns 40 this year. Even if she was psychologically ready to start trying today, she is on half a dozen medications that she would mostly have to go off. Realistically, if she can't function on these meds, is she going to function off of them? Particularly with the additional physical and mental burdens of pregnancy?

You are right, she is doing the best that she can. Part of why we are where we are is that she is really afraid of this. On one hand, she wants to have a family, but on the other hand, she is terrified of being a bad mother and screwing up her kids the way her parents screwed her up. And she is really scared of the physical process of pregnancy. She grew up in a family where everything was a medical emergency and has a lot of anxiety about physical symptoms. It's unfair to call her a hypochondriac, but there is a lot of anxiety over medical things.

Sigh.

The unfair reality is that a post-pubescent male can father children at any age. Women cannot.

True. But the older I get, the greater the age gap between me and a woman likely to want to have a few kids, and I fear not having anything in common or not being able to connect with or even attract anyone. Particularly if I end up being a heel who leaves his poor helpless wife and is still struggling to deal with his own issues and may be in career crisis but still financially supporting his now ex wife. Yeah, the young,fertile ladies will line up to have that guy's babies. Not many of them wanted me when I was younger, skinnier, more muscular and had more hair on my head and less on my back and hadn't made such a mess of my life. The only one that wanted me then is still with me.

Sorry, I think I'm veering off topic again.

[weary]

I just found out last night that my younger sister is pregnant with twins. My other younger sister is getting married this fall, and she will probably start having kids soon after that.

I am so happy for her and my brother and law, and yet the pain of being left behind yet again is staggering. It sounds corny and stupid but I really want that little stick figure family on my back car window.

On one hand, I can honestly say that my wife loves sex, and is very attractive and very attracted to me and very loyal and faithful. As far as the bedroom goes, I probably could not ever hope to find a better partner in terms of enthusiasm and sex drive. Or maybe all women are like that if they are with the right guy, who knows. I am the problem in our sex life right now. I am the one that is not initiating things often enough, that is not accepting her invitations often enough. There are sometimes good reasons. But a lot of it is just being fed up with her - with all of the disappointments. With the lack of responsibility. With her depression and anxiety.

And so much fantasy about fucking and having babies with other women. Not just mindless animal sex with no strings (though I do fantasize about that, I have more "realistic" fantasies as well). The whole package - the dates, the vacations, the home together, the life together, even the disagreements and fights. All of those imagined futures that I used to have for my wife and I... it's like she's been photoshopped out of them, and there is either an imaginary hot woman with an indistinct face, or someone that I actually know (usually one of two specific women) pops into the picture. Ugh.

Relationships are messy. I wish these were all separate problems that could be tackled and solved one by one. But I don't think that they are.

[Kittieface]

I have 15 minutes to write this so I may have to cut it short...

I didn't read all three pages. But I got about 1 1/2 in. I have the same problem. Different situations. I have this big fat cherry on top of being Bisexual. So I basically can't be out in public without someone triggering something.

My best way to cope is something I had decided on a long time ago and I guess I didn't realize it was an actual problem until now.

You are entitled to whatever you think. You don't always control what comes to mind. But that is your space. That is your freedom. If there's something you need to do that isn't outwardly acceptable, sit down and have at it in your head! Like you said, it's the romance too. The dates, the first kiss, holding hands. Making people smile. I get that. I feed off it. I watch A LOT of rom coms lol. I have friends I see in small doses because I know it wouldn't be safe to see them otherwise. I have friends I see in public only. I have friends I never meet. I watch what I say. I watch how I word things. OUTWARDLY. In a world where other people are affected. But in my head, I never, ever, judge myself.

This is who I am. It is something I need to embrace. I tried to be this person outwardly before. I would just have sex, and relationships, and multiple "boyfriends" (I always made sure it was never official, and they were aware or ok with it. Like my own garbage loophole). I'm been in a polyamorist relationship and I hated it. I realized that the life I wanted .. here, outside was pretty straight forward. One person. Get married. Don't fuck it up.

I am crazy on so many levels lol. I have sleep issues, eating issues, anxiety issues, social issues, self confidence issues. I work constantly on managing these. I've, somewhat sadly, put aside all efforts to make them go away. If I can chip away at them, sure. But I need to learn to function with them primarily.

I've married someone who met me in the start of a depression. Stuck it out, saw my through my ups and downs and withdrawals of meds, stood by my in the hospital and still takes the time to slowly talk me through things when I'm struggling. He has a fantastic sense of humor! Essential! I love to laugh! He's a genuinely amazing man and he's faithful. We have a great sex life. Everything is amazing. I wouldn't sacrifice this for ANYTHING. Not for that feeling of falling in love over and over and over. Endless fucking loops!!

LUNCH IS OVER!!
-x0-

[oak]

+1 Kittieface!

Hang in there weary.

[weary]

Hi kittieface. Thanks so much for sacrificing some of the all-precious lunch hour to offer me your thoughts.

One person. Get married. Don't fuck it up.

I agree... struggling with the last part, though.

I've married someone who met me in the start of a depression. Stuck it out, saw my through my ups and downs and withdrawals of meds, stood by my in the hospital and still takes the time to slowly talk me through things when I'm struggling. He has a fantastic sense of humor! Essential! I love to laugh! He's a genuinely amazing man and he's faithful. We have a great sex life. Everything is amazing.

I'm really glad to hear that you and your husband have that kind of relationship. I miss feeling that way with my wife. Do you feel like that you are able to give back to him what he needs when you are not in the throes of depression? And is he able to ask you for what he needs? I love my wife and don't think I would have any problem remaining loyal, monogamous, etc for the rest of my life if I felt like things were more balanced - it was only once I began to feel like not only were my needs not being met now, but they might never be, that I began really doubting whether I wanted to stay in this marriage forever, and it was at that point that all of a sudden I began instinctively seeing other women as possible mates.

I wouldn't sacrifice this for ANYTHING. Not for that feeling of falling in love over and over and over. Endless fucking loops!!

I don't think it's the feeling of falling in love that I want. I agree with you about the loops. I think that the way that you described your husband is something that my wife could say about me... except I am exhausted and I don't want to keep being the one who has his shit together to her person who doesn't, if for no other reason than I really don't have it together all the time and I feel like I have to with her, and that feels unfair. Does that make any sense?

Thanks again for your post. I would be interested to hear if you have any more insight after you have had a chance to read more of the thread (if you have the stomach for it).

[Kittieface]

I read more.. I'm a slow reader .. sorry.

But I did see some stuff coming back over and over . I got 6 minutes lol. I'll try and write more after work sometime.

Forgive me if this sounds basic. I don't mean to assume you haven't tried this already. But, have you ever considered some form of couples therapy? I know that every issue has layers and layers to them. To think that one solution could solve an entire relationship worth of issues is not always realistic.

You have things to deal with, and she has things to deal with individually. Then you combine those things and try to tackle life together.
If one or the other of you isn't willing to try and be a better INDIVIDUAL then nothing will work as a team. It will always be one of you pulling the weight more than the other.

It just sounds like you're looking for a comfort you aren't finding in your marriage. And maybe you feel bad because you promised you'd stay. I may be completely wrong, and forgive me if I step out of line. But have you ever considered that you are just simply not fulfilled by your home life? That your needs aren't being met? And I'm not implying to leave or anything. But maybe they won't get met in your situation. Maybe you're "rebellion" as earlier mentioned is just you trying to find someone who makes you feel like your needs are met.

If you were in my situation where everything at home is great, no complaints, that's a different ballpark. But you've mentioned 100 times that there's things that are just not clicking. I think you guys need to sit down and lay it all out on the table. ..

Crap.. lunch is over.. Tonight I'll try and read more <3

[weary]

You are entitled to whatever you think. You don't always control what comes to mind. But that is your space. That is your freedom.
I watch what I say. I watch how I word things. OUTWARDLY. In a world where other people are affected. But in my head, I never, ever, judge myself.

That is really powerful and that is SO not me. It is actually kind of a fundamental flaw that I have been getting deeper into with my therapist. It comes from my family of origin and has been reinforced by my wife. There is this strong belief that certain thoughts and feelings are "right" and "acceptable" and "OK" and I am literally doing something wrong and getting in trouble if I have thoughts and feelings that do not line up with those.

And I feel like I'm not allowed to have any mental privacy from my wife. She gets extremely anxious when she doesn't feel connected to me, and sometimes I feel like to her that means she needs to know every thought and feeling in my head at all times. She wears all of her feelings on her sleeve constantly and that is one thing that actually makes her hard to live with sometimes. But I have feelings a lot of the time that I don't feel safe sharing with her because of how she will react. But then I feel guilty for having the feelings that I don't think I should have, guilty for then essentially being dishonest by withholding those feelings from her (her words - she has called that a lack of honesty), and really, really afraid and confused.

And to be clear, I'm not just talking about feelings like being attracted to other women. I'm talking about feelings about her and her behaviors. Things that I want, that I need to be different. Things that I am afraid to express because she will react defensively in anger, or fall apart with tears and self-criticism. She devalues and undercuts my wants and needs by saying that she is doing the best she can, that she doesn't know how, that I have to be patient, that I have to accept her and love her just the way she is because that will give her the strength to change and grow. My expression of my wants and needs becomes a challenge where she is almost daring me to say that she is not good enough.

But, have you ever considered some form of couples therapy?

We did, for about 6-8 months, in the immediate aftermath of my stripper tryst. It was an opportunity for us to sit there and get really angry and upset and go over the same things over and over again, and then usually sit in the car for 1-2 hours afterwards and be upset and cry and yell. Nothing got resolved in any way through that process, and we stopped going because he concluded that we both had good reason for not wanting to be in the relationship anymore, yet we still were, but we couldn't really work on the marriage until we both had resolved our individual issues enough to have our identities a little more intact and be able to understand and articulate what we need. That was over two years ago. It still sucks. I am having a hard time improving myself because I am still dealing with her stuff.

If one or the other of you isn't willing to try and be a better INDIVIDUAL then nothing will work as a team. It will always be one of you pulling the weight more than the other.

That's the thing. She's not unwilling to try. For a long time she was. But for the past 3-4 years especially, she is trying. And most of the time it's not working. Or it's working very slowly. And I don't know how to calibrate, and neither does she. How can you tell when something's not working because she is making bad choices/bad decisions or not trying hard enough, or if it is literally absolutely the best that she can do right now? And at the end of the day, if the outcome is not where I want it to be, which is worse - that she could do better but she can't/won't right now, or that she literally cannot possibly do any better?

It just sounds like you're looking for a comfort you aren't finding in your marriage. And maybe you feel bad because you promised you'd stay. I may be completely wrong, and forgive me if I step out of line. But have you ever considered that you are just simply not fulfilled by your home life? That your needs aren't being met? And I'm not implying to leave or anything. But maybe they won't get met in your situation. Maybe you're "rebellion" as earlier mentioned is just you trying to find someone who makes you feel like your needs are met.

This. 100% absolutely. But what is right and wrong in this situation. I can't predict the future. I can't guarantee that she will never be able to get to the point to be able to meet my needs. But how long is reasonable to have to wait for basic things? And what if it's too late for certain things (e.g. kids)? But it is fair, is it reasonable to leave someone because the best that they can do is not good enough, even if they are trying and they are a good person and you love them?

Thanks again for reading and commenting. I appreciate your insight.

[Kittieface]

God I didn't even see this post..

And I feel like I'm not allowed to have any mental privacy from my wife.

That's a no go. You guys need your individuality as much as you need to be connected. You need to take this back in a way that isn't threatening to her. Which is maybe hard, but not impossible.

Sorry to have re-suggested couples counseling. It really does sound like she's got a lot of work to do on herself. I'm not sure what to say. One thing that bothers me about people is when they say they're trying or say they're going to. Actions speak louder than words. She needs to just do it. And I know first hand this shit doesn't just GO away. But she needs to take a real big slice out of it. This is 100% her responsibility. And maybe you need to push a bit more? Maybe walking on egg shells isn't helping her?

It's so delicate. I have to admit, cowardly. I'd walk away. I'm a selfish, shitty person sometimes. I have so much garbage to deal with that if people don't convince me that I'm not gonna be carrying them around, I can very easily take a time out from them. Not a forever thing. But a "keep my own sanity (if I have any left)" break.

It's not that she's not good enough. And there's no good time. Ever. If you're waiting for it you'll be in this forever. But obviously she isn't happy... or she'd be... happy. And you aren't either. What's the point? Maybe you'll provide a better support for each other as close friends? Maybe you'll avoid each other for a year and then get back together stronger than ever. My roommate and her bf did that. She changed sooo much the year they were apart. And she had time for herself. To make a mess without hurting people. And it really helped them both so much. It's not impossible. Maybe it's just bad timing.

You need to pick. And then follow through. But know that you can always reevaluate and change your mind. It's not set in stone. You need to create your own path and future.
And if you pick wrong and she's gone forever... well what next? You keep learning and moving forward. I feel preachy. Sorry.

Again. I'm not saying leave. I'm just saying consider time apart. Or other means of reconnecting with yourself. You need this for you.

[weary]

That's a no go. You guys need your individuality as much as you need to be connected. You need to take this back in a way that isn't threatening to her. Which is maybe hard, but not impossible.

That's a struggle for both of us. I think that is the number one problem with our marriage. We became too entangled. And isolated from other people. And wrapped up in each other's feelings. The problem is, she wears her feelings on the outside, and I stuff mine inside (at least the bad ones). Think about 14 years of living like that.

Sorry to have re-suggested couples counseling.

No, sometimes I think we should try it again. Some things have changed since then. I'm just not sure who to go to. We each have separate therapists, and it wouldn't work well for both of us to go together to see the same person one of us is seeing individually. We could go back to the same guy we saw together before (maybe), who works at the same practice as our individual therapists (we used to just assume they would have committee meetings together to discuss us), but I think my wife ended up feeling like he was taking my side too often. The idea of starting over with a new counselor seems exhausting. Our problems are so fucked up and complicated and we both get frustrated with the idea of having to explain all of the history and all of the dysfunction over and over again. I think that sometimes my wife's therapist still doesn't get exactly how bad things are, and I know that sometimes I come across in my individual appointments and group like I have my shit together a lot more than I really do. Sometimes I feel like I just have to go in and FUCKING FALL APART every time to impress upon them how bad things are - but I have gotten really good at holding it together, with my wife, with my family, with work... that it's habit. It's how I keep from going completely crazy.

There's just so much that is always in flux. I feel like my life is unstable. I could have to find a new job in a different city/state in two years. She is trying to figure out what she wants to be when she grows up. There is still the looming issue of kids. Part of her extreme panic when she found out I was seeing the stripper and it seemed like for a bit that we might not make it was how to simultaneously figure out what to do assuming we are together versus what to do if we end up apart. It makes everything feel twice as stressful. The idea of leaving, even for a night or a weekend, is full of so many danger signs and guilt and shame and would trigger so much explosive emotion for both of us. It's hard to explain fully. I will try to explain more later. I should probably start a new thread... this one has gotten really off topic since I started it mainly about the sex issue (which is obviously a big part of this, but only one part). I still need help figuring that one out, too.

Thanks as always for the kind words.