My mother has never been physically or emotionally ABUSIVE. She is not manipulative, narcissistic (I don't think?) and she doesn't really insult, per se.
She just has never cared about my concerns, feelings or emotional needs.
She's been indifferent and dismissive, or she tries to make me feel like I have zero right to bring up any concerns or needs.
I have always had MASSIVE crippling social anxiety, it's been really obvious, and she's never taken any steps to help me with it.
I remember when I was a kid and was so proud of learning how to write cursive and showing her my work, I just got a "Mmmm..." from her, then she turned her attention back to TV. That is what's happened pretty much any time I've tried to show her something I've achieved.
I have always had ADD, (though I was not diagnosed as a kid) and when I asked her if I could just have some space to myself, that she knock on my door instead of just entering, her standard response was to huff "this is MY house. You get your own and you can do what you want."
It's always been a mix of overbearing and dissmissiveness, and her often taking it personally and belittling me when I complained or tried to explain what I needed.
I am currently living with her while I look for a house of my own, and I haven't gotten anything done on the house search, because I haven't been able to focus living at home. I always feel like I'm going to be interrupted, or I hear the TV on. But I realize I'm a guest here, and I go to the library to work.
Tonight, I asked her if she would reconsider going away for the weekend (she has decided against it) so that I could have the house to myself for a couple of days and work. She responded the usual way "This is MY HOUSE, you're kicking me out? You can do what you want when you get your own." I started shouting at her. I told her about this pattern we've always had, how it was chipping away at my mental health and making me drink. Me, her daughter, told her that what she was doing was stressing me out so much that I was drinking. She didn't even acknowledge that. She just glossed right over it, turned right back to telling me how she was right and I was unreasonable.
She practically shrugs when I say that something is bothering me. I've told her so many times throughout my life that I need her to listen and try to understand, but she has never shown me that that is important to her, it's always about how I'm somehow asking some massive thing from her.
But is this a reason to cut someone out of your life? She's not Joan Crawford, she's just never in any way been truly supportive of me, and has been antagonistic when I ask her to compromise. As a result, I dread talking to her, I don't even like making small talk. I don't feel any kind of bond with her.
I am really confused because all the advice on estrangement has to do with parent's doing really horrible or neglectful things. Does this qualify?
How do you know when to cut ties with a non-abusive parent?
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snoringdog
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Re: How do you know when to cut ties with a non-abusive pare
Hello KT0000!
Welcome to the boards! Maybe you can find something helpful here.
(I feel like I should do an intro like Paul does at this point. Not an expert, etc etc
).
Reading thru your post, it's hard to understand why your mother is acting the way she is, but it certainly seems to be passive-aggressive. And emotional neglect seems to fit. Has she always been this way thru your childhood? Maybe she's depressed right now?
Leaving home one way or another is a natural progression in life. (I moved out when I was eighteen, under less-than-amicable conditions. Had a knock-down fight with my dad - he knocked me down & I probably deserved it. I think we were both depressed
).
Maybe once this move happens, your relationship with her could improve.....(mine did)
Do you have friends you're looking to rent a place with?
Regards
SD
Welcome to the boards! Maybe you can find something helpful here.
(I feel like I should do an intro like Paul does at this point. Not an expert, etc etc
).Reading thru your post, it's hard to understand why your mother is acting the way she is, but it certainly seems to be passive-aggressive. And emotional neglect seems to fit. Has she always been this way thru your childhood? Maybe she's depressed right now?
Leaving home one way or another is a natural progression in life. (I moved out when I was eighteen, under less-than-amicable conditions. Had a knock-down fight with my dad - he knocked me down & I probably deserved it. I think we were both depressed
).Maybe once this move happens, your relationship with her could improve.....(mine did)
Do you have friends you're looking to rent a place with?
Regards
SD
Re: How do you know when to cut ties with a non-abusive pare
Hi, thanks for replying!
Yes, she's always been this way. I don't think she's depressed. Just apathetic. It's not like she doesn't have the energy to deal with stuff, she doesn't want to. But she has definite control issues that she takes out on me. I think she sees me talking about "messy" things like concerns and needs as a personal affront/chance to "prove who's boss."
I've lived on my own for about 20 years, and we've still had these run-ins. I just can't stop seeing her as an emotional bully unless she tries to change, and this last fight we had, she didn't even stop when I said I was going to drink if she kept on. That to me is a red flag, I think. That she chooses being "right" over her daughter's well-being (and sobriety??!)
But again, most stuff I read on estrangement, the parents have physically/mentally abused, or had definite boundary issues. I guess I just don't see much like what I described, and I've always asked myself "is it ME?" And will the cost of cutting her off be greater? Sounds weird, but maybe just dealing with the crappy self esteem she gives me might actually be the better option. It's just hard to see what will/could become of this, it's a gamble.
Yes, she's always been this way. I don't think she's depressed. Just apathetic. It's not like she doesn't have the energy to deal with stuff, she doesn't want to. But she has definite control issues that she takes out on me. I think she sees me talking about "messy" things like concerns and needs as a personal affront/chance to "prove who's boss."
I've lived on my own for about 20 years, and we've still had these run-ins. I just can't stop seeing her as an emotional bully unless she tries to change, and this last fight we had, she didn't even stop when I said I was going to drink if she kept on. That to me is a red flag, I think. That she chooses being "right" over her daughter's well-being (and sobriety??!)
But again, most stuff I read on estrangement, the parents have physically/mentally abused, or had definite boundary issues. I guess I just don't see much like what I described, and I've always asked myself "is it ME?" And will the cost of cutting her off be greater? Sounds weird, but maybe just dealing with the crappy self esteem she gives me might actually be the better option. It's just hard to see what will/could become of this, it's a gamble.
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snoringdog
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Re: How do you know when to cut ties with a non-abusive pare
Hello!
Thought you were younger and just heading out for the first time....
(That's one difficulty with this method of communication, right? One of the many facets of the famous NewYorker mag's cartoon captioned "On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog!"
)
Don't know about your relationship, but Paul mentioned something like he couldn't find a "common reality" with his mother, which is pretty telling about her state of mind....
Maybe you can just take some sort of time off from her, so to speak? Not possible when you're living in the same house maybe, but I assume in the past you've let stretches go by without contacting her, right? What was the dynamic then?
Thought you were younger and just heading out for the first time....
(That's one difficulty with this method of communication, right? One of the many facets of the famous NewYorker mag's cartoon captioned "On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog!"
)Don't know about your relationship, but Paul mentioned something like he couldn't find a "common reality" with his mother, which is pretty telling about her state of mind....
Maybe you can just take some sort of time off from her, so to speak? Not possible when you're living in the same house maybe, but I assume in the past you've let stretches go by without contacting her, right? What was the dynamic then?
Re: How do you know when to cut ties with a non-abusive pare
That's OK! I didn't make the timeline too clear. I moved back about a year ago.
Yes, I actually ceased talking to her altogether when I was about 13. When I moved out, (22, I think?) we were not on speaking terms. I spent the next decade receiving calls from her maybe 6-7 times a year, usually holidays.
It was brutal, I would forget what the whole problem was (partly because I never exactly knew) and feel guilty, which led to contact again. We would get on superficially, but we always had a blow up every year, (same as what I've posted- I would try to bring up a concern or ask for a compromise) then she'd give a half-assed apology, but I think I knew she would not be able to change. But I hoped, so it was back to superficial getting along, until it happened again.
I guess I just figure, what's the point? She is fine and acts sorta mom-like until I bring up a need of mine, then she treats me like something that needs to be subdued. She's not capable of being supportive, she protects her own needs above mine, and I'm not able to go to her when I'm concerned about something. Sounds cold, but I just think, what is she good for in my life? She broke my spirit, and when I tried to convey how her behavior was affecting me, she blew it off.
If I had a kid and they told me they weren't happy, I would do everything I could to help them find happiness. I just don't get how a parent could drop the ball over and over again on something like that, or actively make it worse, and just shrug it off.
Sorry, I'm venting, this is over 30 years' worth of angst
Yes, I actually ceased talking to her altogether when I was about 13. When I moved out, (22, I think?) we were not on speaking terms. I spent the next decade receiving calls from her maybe 6-7 times a year, usually holidays.
It was brutal, I would forget what the whole problem was (partly because I never exactly knew) and feel guilty, which led to contact again. We would get on superficially, but we always had a blow up every year, (same as what I've posted- I would try to bring up a concern or ask for a compromise) then she'd give a half-assed apology, but I think I knew she would not be able to change. But I hoped, so it was back to superficial getting along, until it happened again.
I guess I just figure, what's the point? She is fine and acts sorta mom-like until I bring up a need of mine, then she treats me like something that needs to be subdued. She's not capable of being supportive, she protects her own needs above mine, and I'm not able to go to her when I'm concerned about something. Sounds cold, but I just think, what is she good for in my life? She broke my spirit, and when I tried to convey how her behavior was affecting me, she blew it off.
If I had a kid and they told me they weren't happy, I would do everything I could to help them find happiness. I just don't get how a parent could drop the ball over and over again on something like that, or actively make it worse, and just shrug it off.
Sorry, I'm venting, this is over 30 years' worth of angst
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snoringdog
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Re: How do you know when to cut ties with a non-abusive pare
No need to apologize! We all need to vent.
This goes all the way back to age 13, wow, I'm sorry to hear that. We had the typical blowouts as teenagers, but the parents were always engaged...
Do you have any siblings, and if so, what's happening with them in this regard?
And what do you suppose her reaction would be if you wrote out what you're relating here, simply and directly, and mailed it to her? (You may have done this already). Maybe takes the emotion out of it a little bit. For me, sometimes seeing things in black & white makes them sink in more.
Don't know if this relates at all, but there's a book on Borderline Personality Disorder that's titled "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me". Had an sister-in-law who operated this way...
BTW - When you said that she drives you to drink so to speak, you gotta remember that this isn't so, right? She might stress, frustrate, anger, sadden or infuriate you, but you have a choice in how you respond. (I've also used alcohol to try to deal, and it's not a very effective tool).
Remember, it's your mother that has the mental/personality problem whatever it is, and not you.... You are perceptive, self aware and seeking normalcy. Don't doubt yourself!
This goes all the way back to age 13, wow, I'm sorry to hear that. We had the typical blowouts as teenagers, but the parents were always engaged...
Do you have any siblings, and if so, what's happening with them in this regard?
And what do you suppose her reaction would be if you wrote out what you're relating here, simply and directly, and mailed it to her? (You may have done this already). Maybe takes the emotion out of it a little bit. For me, sometimes seeing things in black & white makes them sink in more.
Don't know if this relates at all, but there's a book on Borderline Personality Disorder that's titled "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me". Had an sister-in-law who operated this way...
BTW - When you said that she drives you to drink so to speak, you gotta remember that this isn't so, right? She might stress, frustrate, anger, sadden or infuriate you, but you have a choice in how you respond. (I've also used alcohol to try to deal, and it's not a very effective tool).
Remember, it's your mother that has the mental/personality problem whatever it is, and not you.... You are perceptive, self aware and seeking normalcy. Don't doubt yourself!
Re: How do you know when to cut ties with a non-abusive pare
I have an older sister who has major issues with self-esteem. She is estranged from the family. I think her self esteem is a result of my mom's mental bullying, but there is probably more to it. My older brother, I think he was more successful in counteracting mom's bs, and was closer to my dad anyway (as sons tend to be I think.)
Last night she asked me to talk, and I did give her a letter (8 pages, handwritten) that said I'm done with this control game stuff and I'm ready to cut contact if she doesn't take concrete steps to change. I told her to read it a few times. She said "well, after I read it, can we talk?" kind of dejectedly, and I felt bad and sorry for her. But, this is all part of the pattern. We'll awkwardly talk, she might (unconvincingly) apologize, and we'll more or less get on again, but she won't change.
I haven't talked to her since she read it, but regardless I'm mentally checked out of our "relationship." I felt a lot of relief and freedom in finally shutting that door. I was always afraid I would be making a mistake when I thought about cutting it off the past, but this time, with the total disregard for my appeals to back down when I said I was afraid I'd drink.... that's kind of the last bit of "evidence" I need that she has a definite problem with priorities: Control=#1 priority, Daughter=#2 (maybe even lower for all I know.)
You're right, it IS my responsibility to control my drinking. And I'm really trying (and succeeding, until stuff like this.) But sometimes it's just a mindless beeline to "safety." But I think it's also her responsibility to be considerate of this, esp when my sobriety is a bit fragile. I'm not tryng to manipulate anyone, I really just do fear that things like this will give me a setback. The fact that it doesn't even faze her... that was just a whole new low for her, even though I'm not that suprised, sigh. And that I can't even go to her for support with THAT. It feels totaly hopeless.
That book might pertain, I'll check it out, but I don't think she has BPD. She doesn't go to the other end of the emotional spectrum, she's either in the middle or "how DARE you .." where she shuts down communication. She's never gotten hysterical, she never even cries. I've never even really seen her sad. What kinds of things would your sister in law do?
Thanks for you kind words of support, it really is helpful, really. Sometimes I DO doubt myself and need to get persepctive, especially since I don't really have any "witnesses" for this.
Last night she asked me to talk, and I did give her a letter (8 pages, handwritten) that said I'm done with this control game stuff and I'm ready to cut contact if she doesn't take concrete steps to change. I told her to read it a few times. She said "well, after I read it, can we talk?" kind of dejectedly, and I felt bad and sorry for her. But, this is all part of the pattern. We'll awkwardly talk, she might (unconvincingly) apologize, and we'll more or less get on again, but she won't change.
I haven't talked to her since she read it, but regardless I'm mentally checked out of our "relationship." I felt a lot of relief and freedom in finally shutting that door. I was always afraid I would be making a mistake when I thought about cutting it off the past, but this time, with the total disregard for my appeals to back down when I said I was afraid I'd drink.... that's kind of the last bit of "evidence" I need that she has a definite problem with priorities: Control=#1 priority, Daughter=#2 (maybe even lower for all I know.)
You're right, it IS my responsibility to control my drinking. And I'm really trying (and succeeding, until stuff like this.) But sometimes it's just a mindless beeline to "safety." But I think it's also her responsibility to be considerate of this, esp when my sobriety is a bit fragile. I'm not tryng to manipulate anyone, I really just do fear that things like this will give me a setback. The fact that it doesn't even faze her... that was just a whole new low for her, even though I'm not that suprised, sigh. And that I can't even go to her for support with THAT. It feels totaly hopeless.
That book might pertain, I'll check it out, but I don't think she has BPD. She doesn't go to the other end of the emotional spectrum, she's either in the middle or "how DARE you .." where she shuts down communication. She's never gotten hysterical, she never even cries. I've never even really seen her sad. What kinds of things would your sister in law do?
Thanks for you kind words of support, it really is helpful, really. Sometimes I DO doubt myself and need to get persepctive, especially since I don't really have any "witnesses" for this.
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snoringdog
- Posts: 1450
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Re: How do you know when to cut ties with a non-abusive pare
Glad to hear you're coming to terms with the situation.
Paul or someone said that part of it is actually mourning a loss. You have the deeply held idea & desire for a supporting, loving parent, but need to accept that this is not to be...
Can't imagine why she would act this way. Mothers should (and often are) their child's biggest boosters, almost to the point of blindness sometimes....
As far as the book, it was just the title that seemed to fit a little. My in-law was verbally and emotionally abusive and manipulative, and everyone had cut ties already.
Take care.
Paul or someone said that part of it is actually mourning a loss. You have the deeply held idea & desire for a supporting, loving parent, but need to accept that this is not to be...
Can't imagine why she would act this way. Mothers should (and often are) their child's biggest boosters, almost to the point of blindness sometimes....
As far as the book, it was just the title that seemed to fit a little. My in-law was verbally and emotionally abusive and manipulative, and everyone had cut ties already.
Take care.
Re: How do you know when to cut ties with a non-abusive pare
You too. Thanks for the advice, and thanks for listening
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Heatherwantspeace
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Re: How do you know when to cut ties with a non-abusive pare
Hi KT000,
A mom not attuning to their child is abusive. It messes up our whole sense of self and self worth. It counts.
I'm so thankful for the guests on Paul's show that brought this to my attention. I had no idea! I just knew I never really felt anything for my mom. I tried for years as a child to win her love, or even interest, but couldn't. At some point I gave up. When she died I was sad for a few months, and I think then it was only the loss of the "what if's" and not her actual death.
I'm been doing therapy to put myself into the "good mother" role. It's helped me heal my feelings of worthlessness so much. I did a lot of fun stuff like buy myself toys but also lots of checking in with how the child me was feeling. Retroactively gave myself the attention I needed.
Your feelings are valid. I hope you can find your own space really soon. Only have as much and the kind of contact you want.
Hugs!
Heather
A mom not attuning to their child is abusive. It messes up our whole sense of self and self worth. It counts.
I'm so thankful for the guests on Paul's show that brought this to my attention. I had no idea! I just knew I never really felt anything for my mom. I tried for years as a child to win her love, or even interest, but couldn't. At some point I gave up. When she died I was sad for a few months, and I think then it was only the loss of the "what if's" and not her actual death.
I'm been doing therapy to put myself into the "good mother" role. It's helped me heal my feelings of worthlessness so much. I did a lot of fun stuff like buy myself toys but also lots of checking in with how the child me was feeling. Retroactively gave myself the attention I needed.
Your feelings are valid. I hope you can find your own space really soon. Only have as much and the kind of contact you want.
Hugs!
Heather