There's Nothing To Tell You, There's Nothing To Sell You

[cyanidebreathmint]

Hi,

My real name is Kim. I am 24. My username comes from an early Beck song, and so does the post title.

I am a comedy nerd, and so remember weird facts like that that same Beck song was used as background music during an SNL sketch starring Ben Stiller. If I was a better comedy nerd, I'd know which episode and year. ( I really hope I am not wrong, and won't look stupid when a superior comedy nerd comes around to correct me. As if this would ever happen.)

Anyway, I found this podcast maybe a week ago (after typing "depression" into a stitcher radio search) and have been burning through episodes pretty quickly. Big Fan.

How I became a person who types "depression" into any and all search bars:

I don't remember my father and mother being together. They divorced when I was incredibly young. My father was gay & soon after I was born and he and my mother had moved r to a new state far from any family or friends, he realized he wasn't into women or babies and moved off to sunny LA and left us there. My mom used to tell me how he never tried to gain custody of me as if it made him a real sweet guy, but it's probably better than a fight. I never cared about or resented my dad being gay. He came out to me when I was at about age 11. But I did resent his getting high whenever I was with him, and later I found out I resented his abandonment. Later still I found out I resented his being relatively wealthy and me growing up poor.

Life at my mom's house, which had served as a revolving door for mentally ill, alcoholic, drug addicted male family members, resulting in a loveless dysfunctional icy hulk of a marriage between my mother and stepfather, was a bit chaotic. When I got out of high school, I was encouraged to drink and fit in with the family. I was more of a peer to my mother than a daughter, encouraged to take the place of husband in certain ways from a young age. My mother was the perpetual victim of her brothers, husbands, and father. She always said getting married wasn't her choice, and that my stepdad took advantage of her being insane to marry her. She said she had no recollection of getting married, and she just "woke up" one day in this horrible marriage. She left him once, for maybe a year or two, and got back with him. She seemed to resent every moment of her marriage. As a result I harbored a fear and hatred of my stepfather and to an extent all males as mysterious kind monsters/abusers. Later I found out my grandfather is a pedophile. Also when I was 12ish my drunk step-grandfather lured me into my parent's basement and did a bit of feeling up. I guess my life was dominated with unstable men. I have almost unbelievable intimacy issues that, despite my best efforts and plenty of obsessing, I really can't understand at all.

At 19, I left my mom's house to move to LA and escape some of the chaos. I realize now I was in a bad place mentally at the time. I arrived at my dad's door with a few hundred bucks in my pocket. He was unemployed at the time, doing a bit of temping. It was very awkward, because we had never developed any sort of meaningful relationship and had previously spent most of our time together watching movies, which is what we did while I was there living with him. He drank, and got high in what he thought was secret. I wanted nurturing or to be taken care of. I wanted to kind of steal my childhood back from him after it was too late. I didn't really realize that at the time. But it didn't work. One night, I woke up from my sleep having a panic attack. I thought it was a heart attack. From that moment on I had an unshakable sense of doom, and soon after that early panic attack I returned home to (in my very sick mind) die. I had multiple daily panic attacks for close to a year. Drama ensued from my intense anxiety and absolute knowledge that I would die any minute. Eventually my medical doctor diagnosed me with an anxiety disorder. NOBODY, INCLUDING HER, EVER SUGGESTED I SEE A MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL. Sorry for the caps, I just find that bizarre now that I'm looking back on it. It was actually discouraged by my mother and friends. Anyway, I went back to school and I was sort of able to maintain until I graduated with my totally useless philosophy degree. (Actually not really, maybe, cuz in the process I developed a bit of an eating disorder and deeper relationship with alcohol.) Then, in the summer of 2010, shortly after I graduated, my dad died. Then I lost my job. And ever since, I've been back on the crazy coaster. I got more depressed than I ever had in my life. It scared me. I stopped drinking for a while. I went to a shrink who made me angry. Then I got a job, which made things a bit better due to routine. But I hate office work, and have creative aspirations.

Recently, I have been learning about Buddhism and its concepts have been bringing me out of some depressive pits. I still compulsively think about dying/ ending my life. It's not something I feel I would ever do. But the thinking about it is some kind of primitive coping mechanism for me. ( My fifth grade teacher took me aside once and said, "nobody is making you do anything. Every action you take, you're taking by choice." I don't remember what shitheadedness I was into at the moment. Anyway, I see it kind of like that. The meditating on ending it reminds me that every step I'm taking is a choice, and that can be a comfort)I wonder if that's more normal than I think.

Buddhist teachings help, however, I fear Buddhism and spirituality in general. I was raised Catholic, but dropped it very early. I fear it makes me stupid or silly to believe in things. And, on a deeper level, I fear losing my sense of self, a self that is funny and sarcastic and kind of just evil, to become some kind of lobotomy patient at the hands of religion. That's mean, and stupid. But it's a real fear. I compensate by telling myself that Buddhism is really a philosophy, and I disregard all the floofy reincarnation/karma stuff, reading it more metaphorically or scientifically. But the suffering parts, I really really get that. The everyone is suffering bit brings immediate relief to the constant fear wracking my body, and helps me become patient and less angry and helps with the sadness of typing up fucking memos and doing office stuff. I think, "oh yeah, everyone here hates life." And that helps me function and sleep. Is that wrong? Probably.

Uhm, Hello!

I like the refreshingly honest spirit of this whole endeavor.

Kim

[manuel_moe_g]

Hello Kim!

How, what an intense life. I am so happy you have so much self-knowledge at the young age of 24. That makes me happy, that you have a good chance of living your life in a way that is loving and honors yourself, and that you will not waste as much time as I did.

I don't know what to say to you that wouldn't sound stupid.

One thing I got from "radical acceptance" ("Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life: The New Acceptance and Commitment Therapy", Steven C. Hayes, Spencer Smith) is there is a distinction between [1] pain and [2] suffering. Embrace your pain - hold your pain like you would a crying child and accept your pain and honor your pain. You will go through a lot of pain in your life as you work to fulfill moral goals and accomplishments and have meaningful experiences. "Suffering" is meaningless pain. Suffering is pain that can have no part in fulfilling moral goals and having accomplishments and having meaningful experiences.

Paradoxically, the way you avoid suffering is by embracing morally motivated pain - the pain of moving forward outside of your comfort zone into a more capable place - that more capable place may be scary because it is unfamiliar. As you become more and more capable, you raise the stakes and push yourself further and further- push yourself in a loving way, controlling the duration you are outside of your comfort zone so you don't break down. You keep raising the stakes, you keep experiencing that pain, you keep honoring and embracing that pain like you would hold a crying child. And then there is no room for suffering, because meaningless pain has no entryway into you.

I am working to change my relationship with pain and failure. I step into things where pain and failure are likely - now I call just simply trying "success" and if there is external rewards, then that is just gravy. Paradoxically, when you refuse to embrace pain and failure you allow in suffering and soul crushing failure - embrace and honor morally meaningful pain and embrace external failure and embrace the outer appearance of failure. And embrace the inner success of simply trying and simply choosing and committing to change, with no regard to the worldly chance of success for any particular path to change.

Because you cannot escape problems, you can only trade one set of problems with another set of problems. So you work to trade up again and again to sets of problems of higher and higher quality, because your standard for moral capability is constantly rising.

I am just typing, working out the words for myself. Sorry if it is a confused mess.

Please take care, all the best, cheers!

[Paul Gilmartin]

Cyanidebreathmint,

Welcome to the forum! Thanks for opening up. It sounds like there's some stuff in Buddhism that you're really relating to, and that's awesome. I have to remind myself daily to accept the things I can't control. But I hate it some days because I want to control everything! Oh, how ugly it would be if I got my way!

When I'm stressing out sometimes I'll ask myself, "Is this going to even matter in 5 years?" Often the answer is "no". And that helps me get into acceptance and out of fear.

Paul

[cyanidebreathmint]

Manuel and Paul! Thanks for your responses!

Manuel,

Thanks for your compliments and well wishes. I really think/hope I am on a path to good or better things right now. There was a long time where I was very attracted to negativity and darkness as a way of being or setting myself apart, but I think MAYBE I am ready to give that up and be a human being who can give something to the world.

I like the idea of nurturing your pained inner child. What you related about that made a lot of sense. Whether or not suffering is ever meaningless, I'm not sure. The ideas behind the reading make some sense to me, however. I especially connect to the trading one set of problems for another set of problems thing, which kind of relates to the idea that everyone is suffering. Maybe I'll take a look after the one I'm reading now. The book I'm into now is called "The Heart of Buddha's Teaching" by Thich Nhat Nahn. It's actually pretty amazing reading. And I am pretty surprised to hear myself say it, to tell you the truth. I told my friend I was reading about Buddhism and she got a bit slack jawed. She's my roommate, and last month when I asked her if I could borrow her bible, she actually was at a loss for words. That will tell you how cynical I am, and maybe lend some authority to what I'm saying about the book. It's really very good.


Paul,

Thanks for the welcome! Accepting things I can't control is something I've always related to intellectually, but putting it into daily life is a huge struggle. I have to admit I'm a stubborn person, I guess. I want to control most things, too. I never thought about it being ugly if I got my way. I always assumed it would be pretty amazing. Lol. Something to think about.

The perspective of time seems to be helpful. Most things won't matter a few years down the line. But tell that to a catastrophic thinker, huh?

Thanks,

Kim

[dare i say it]

Buddhist teachings help, however, I fear Buddhism and spirituality in general. I was raised Catholic, but dropped it very early. I fear it makes me stupid or silly to believe in things. And, on a deeper level, I fear losing my sense of self...

That hits pretty close to the mark for me as well. I'm a bit lost when it comes to higher powers and spirituality. I'd like to think that it's okay and healthy to expect bold claims to be supported by strong evidence. I do try very hard to keep an open mind on these matters though. It's not easy.

[cyanidebreathmint]

Yeah, I think that it should be ok and healthy to limit your faith to a faith in the goodness of other people/creatures. That in itself is amazing. That in itself is grace. That people cry for others pain is a sort of divine grace. For me, I think learning about science, especially BIG science...that's something that gives me the awe feeling and instant perspective shift that maybe some people get from religion. Just thinking about the odds of us existing, looking at the amazing beauty of space. To think, we can take pictures of space. And those pictures, taken right now, are also pictures of stretches of time in the unfathomably distant past. To think, we came from all of that floating stuff out there, and became us, beings capable of art and love who are mostly driven by good intentions (even when things go bad). For me, and most likely most people, the idea that my consciousness is something I'm basically borrowing from "stuff" is my biggest source of what could be called spiritual angst. This is what religion helps with, but maybe if acceptance is possible that could be just as good. The humility that would take is almost hard to wrap my head around. I think this is where it's cool to keep an open mind about the teachings of other religions, even if we don't accept all of the stated facts. The basics are usually about humility from what I can tell, if we can get around a lot of the extras. Sometimes I get angry when people say that we need to have some sense of a higher power. If we really think about reality and nature, why can't that be enough? It's incredible, and the more we learn the more incredible it becomes.

[dare i say it]

Well said. Very well said. I share your awe for the natural world and our place in it.

[cyanidebreathmint]

Thank you, dare I.

I had read your now edited post pre-edit. I was considering my response. I didn't think it was anything that would cause flame warring, but religion can be a touchy subject for sure.

I also didn't think it was immature to have the relationship you described with religion. I think it's absolutely human and normal to want and need to be a part of a group. There's something very valuable in that. I was a Catholic only until about age 9, at which point I was given the choice to stay at Catholic school or leave, and I left and sort of just left my faith behind too shortly after that. But the things you described as having gained from religion and valuable and important, and it's interesting to think where we do develop things like our sense of right and wrong and certainty in our beliefs. I struggle a lot with certainty. Basically, I don't have it. Even minor decisions can become problematic for me. How do I know what I'm choosing is right? On some level maybe it's about how do I know my decisions are a right of mine just by virtue of my existing. I tend not to think of myself as a true agent in life, but more an observer. Religion, I feel, could be helpful for making one a responsible agent working in accordance with and/or on behalf of a higher order.

[dare i say it]

I'm sorry now that I edited what I wrote before. I guess I chickened out because I couldn't tell if what I was saying would be too provocative for a forum like this one. Basically what I said was that I used to be religious and now I'm not. Also, that it's been a difficult transition because my religious beliefs gave me a sense of belonging, an unambiguous concept of right and wrong, a way to cope with injustice, a way to cope with loss, and a way to assign meaning to suffering. I haven't written off religion altogether. I have no desire to disparage anyone else's beliefs and I hope no one takes it that way.

I struggle quite a bit with uncertainty myself. I don't think I'm 100% clear on the concept of being a true agent or a responsible agent. I'd be interested to hear more about it though. For me, part of the struggle is to decide what is right and what is wrong in general. Another part of me does a lot of "what if" thinking when I'm trying to make even the smallest decisions, e.g. what to wear, what to eat...and what to write in a forum post.

Here are the moral concepts I'm going with for now:
1. The golden rule still applies. Do unto others as you would have done unto you. Love your neighbor as yourself.
2. Don't use people purely as a means to an end. That one's hard to explain because we all need things from other people. I know it when I see it.
3. Try to avoid saying things about people behind their back that you would be uncomfortable saying to their face.
4. Try not to fall into the trap of taking pleasure from someone else's misfortune. This is sometimes called schadenfreude.
5. When it comes to choices that only directly affect myself, I generally aim for long-term fulfillment, joy, and inner peace. I know that's not very specific.

Let me know what you think! (anyone)

Dan

[manuel_moe_g]

Hello dare i say it / Dan,

Please forgive me in advance for speaking about religion freely. It is not my place to make anyone feel defensive about core and sustaining and nourishing beliefs.

Dan, I like your 5 commandments better than the Ten Commandments that Moses brought down from the mountain.

I might add:

6. You are not entitled to anything, and you shouldn't count on justice to rescue you. Your heart tells you what other people that you love are entitled to and what justice they need, and that fuels a sense of personal responsibility. So don't think about entitlement and justice, think about responsibility.
7. With regard to time, treat your Present with the same respect that you would treat your Ideal Future.

I was raise as an Evangelical Lutheran, and I quit when I felt the weight of haughty judgement very heavily and I didn't feel support and fellowship at all. (Embarassingly, I think it had a lot to do with my massive sense of selfishness and self-absorption, than any pure feeling. )

With regard to my self-absorption, I also lost my religion because I thought, falsely, that if I took religion to be the truth, then my behavior would fall perfectly in line. That was wrong - I don't think I will return to being a conventional believer, but if this would have been stressed more in my religious training, I would have been religious longer.

I had a sense of a loving and welcoming and forgiving Jesus, and I still love my Jesus. I am pretty horrified at the genocidal and jealous and resentful and petty and capricious Old Testament God. Phooey on that guy.

I don't think I'm 100% clear on the concept of being a true agent or a responsible agent.

When it comes to knowing how to behave morally, I am pretty confident in listening to my heart, taking issues of morality seriously, looking to improve myself morally, looking to remove personal hypocrisy and moral contradictions as best I can, making my ego as small as possible and using my ego and sense-of-self to protect only the most valuable things, and not taking delight in trying to make other people wrong. I think this is a pretty sound basis to build a life upon.

All the best, cheers!