Thriving with my cat in my comfort zone

[psychofarm]

Thanks for your replies Manuel_moe_g and dare i say it/Dan, I really do appreciate the support. It's funny, I've thought about the trade-off of one type of pain for another so many times after having been there for many of my friends' breakups. One of my countless fears revolves around not being able to bare the pain of a breakup should I ever have the fortune of forming a romantic relationship. My therapist is convinced that with everything I've been through, the pain of rejection will be par for the course for me, and I shouldn't let that deter me from pursuing it (but I continue to doubt this). I fear any hick-up in the relationship will send me into a downward spiral of anxiety and self-loathing, and inevitably lead to her rejecting me.

Above all, my fear is that should I somehow enter the dating world, I will be immediately rejected before I can even begin. After all, what woman in her right mind would find a guy my age who has zero experience with intimacy on any level anything but creepy and weird? Who would have the patience? I'm not in junior high or even high school anymore, let alone college. I fear I've missed my chance, that it's over for me, and I'm a fool for even thinking about trying.

But on the other side of the coin the pain can be unbearable at times. I literally fought through tears at the gym today, and broke down in the shower after my workout, despite the endorphins pumping through my veins (add poor body image to my list of psychological issues). Times like this I try to remind myself of how fortunate I am, that I'm not a factory worker in China, or begging on the streets of India and sleeping on a pile of trash, or any number of horrible things people suffer through on a daily basis. This somehow brings me little comfort however, and I feel like a selfish piece of shit for it. I guess I don't know where to go from here. I've stalled with my therapist; the "self-talk" and "automatic thoughts" exercises I could never complete, as the anxiety shoots through like a reflex, so fast that I can't identify any one single thought that's beating me down when I'm in the moment, so I don't know how to re-train my thoughts to something positive.

I'm at the end of my rope, but I'm still not suicidal; I fear death too much, and I couldn't bare to do that to my family. It's all I'm hanging on to at the moment.

[dare i say it]

After all, what woman in her right mind would find a guy my age who has zero experience with intimacy on any level anything but creepy and weird? Who would have the patience?

You might be surprised. Many women have a fear of rejection and limited experience with intimacy themselves. At least you're aware of your current limitations and you're willing to work on overcoming them. I feel like that's about all you can ask from someone you care about. Would you reject a woman you cared about just because she hadn't been in very many relationships? (I suspect not.) Anyway, I totally get what you're saying. I pretty much have the same fears. For me, anticipating the rejection and judging myself very harshly make being vulnerable almost impossible sometimes.

I literally fought through tears at the gym today, and broke down in the shower after my workout

Lately, I've been crying a lot myself. I hate crying, even when no one is around. I've been told that finding a way to express my emotions is part of getting better though, so I guess I'll have to do it anyway.

I guess I don't know where to go from here. I've stalled with my therapist; the "self-talk" and "automatic thoughts" exercises I could never complete, as the anxiety shoots through like a reflex, so fast that I can't identify any one single thought that's beating me down when I'm in the moment, so I don't know how to re-train my thoughts to something positive.

I feel your pain, Farm. I've been there. I like cognitive therapy, a lot, but it sometimes leaves me with the impression that no one really understands how hard this whole process is for me. It is so damn hard. My success rate with committing to therapy work is a little better than it is with New Year'srResolutions, but that's not saying much.

On the other hand, I have been doing quite a bit better over the last 2 months when it comes to maintaining habits that are good for me. I could list all of the things that went into making that happen, but by the end I'd probably have carpal tunnel syndrome. It suffices to say that I started small, took advantage of all available sources of support, and broadened my approach to more than just pure CBT.

Hope that helps. Keep us posted on how you're doing. We're rooting for you.

Dan

[psychofarm]

You might be surprised. Many women have a fear of rejection and limited experience with intimacy themselves. At least you're aware of your current limitations and you're willing to work on overcoming them. I feel like that's about all you can ask from someone you care about. Would you reject a woman you cared about just because she hadn't been in very many relationships? (I suspect not.) Anyway, I totally get what you're saying. I pretty much have the same fears. For me, anticipating the rejection and judging myself very harshly make being vulnerable almost impossible sometimes.

I appreciate the empathy, knowing others have the same feelings provides a semblance of comfort, I guess it's why I was attracted to the podcast in the first place (thanks Paul, btw, I don't think I've officially posted my gratitude toward your work). I guess my biggest problem at this point in my life is my age, and how to begin on the path. I get what you're saying about how there are woman to who share in these insecurities, and to answer your question I would not reject someone based on their experience level. Unfortunately I'm still stuck on the issue of my age. Most single woman in my range are either divorced with children, or are otherwise in a place in their lives where they don't have the time or energy for a "project" such as myself. They want a man, not a child, and it's difficult for me to view myself as anything but pathetic, weak, and immature. I can only see a woman who is stable, or at least not a complete mess, run the other direction from someone as old as me who has literally zero, zilch, nadda, experience with the opposite sex. Who has the time, energy, or patience for that?

Maybe I've driven these thoughts into my head so many times that I'm stuck in a negative feedback loop, that I'm sabotaging my efforts before I can even begin to make real progress. I know I need to open up to new ways of thinking, and I've got decades of negative programming to re-code. But where do I start to unravel this spaghettified mess in my brain? I'm hoping meditation will bring me some peace; so far I'm struggling with it, but as my therapist has told me the cruel irony of it is that all too often those who stand to gain the most benefit from it find it the most difficult. I just need to give it time, and be disciplined and consistent in my practice. It's so hard when you get up early every morning and go through the paces, and not see any positive reinforcement. I suppose I need to be patient.

I'm seeing my shrink today, I think I'm going to move forward with the hypnotherapist he has referred me to, as I have a huge problem with insomnia on top of everything else. I'll try anything at this point.

[dare i say it]

They want a man, not a child, and it's difficult for me to view myself as anything but pathetic, weak, and immature. I can only see a woman who is stable, or at least not a complete mess, run the other direction from someone as old as me who has literally zero, zilch, nadda, experience with the opposite sex. Who has the time, energy, or patience for that?

For me to spout wisdom on this topic is, well, like the blind leading the blind. But at least I know what it's like first-hand. Criticism and judgment hurt when they come from other people, but I can take about 90% of the sting out of those words if I don't secretly agree with them. The million dollar question is how to stop judging myself. A story may help.

I tend to put off going to the barbershop because I don't really want to answer simple questions about myself like, "How are you doing? Where do you work? Are you married? Any kids? Any plans for the weekend/holiday?" I anticipate ridicule and judgment if I answer these questions honestly. [The only way to do justice to this next part is to use strong language. Fair warning.] I walk in there thinking, I'm such a worthless piece of shit. I'm a pathetic loser and everyone can see it. What kind of a fuck-up am I that I put off getting a haircut for weeks even though I know that it looks like total shit. And it goes on like that. Last week though, I brought this up with my therapist and we worked on this scenario specifically. He let me explain the situation fully and then he helped me find ways to talk about it without using words like "worthless," "pathetic," and "fuck-up." We role-played the conversation I might have with the barber. I had been working really hard for the last few weeks on taking a non-judgmental stance on things. I suggested that my "homework" for the day would be a trip to the barbershop. I was surprised at how well it went! It's not that my self-consciousness was totally gone, but for the first time in years it was manageable.

I feel like I'm about 2 steps into a 1000 mile journey sometimes. Having to put that much effort into making a 15-minute experience manageable gives me some indication of what I'm up against. But I have to believe it gets easier with time and practice.

[manuel_moe_g]

Wow, I have to keep pinching myself - I feel like I am dreaming reading posts that describe my life perfectly.

Since I am the "ancient" 41 year old guy, I can speak about some of the feelings on the other side of events that tore me up inside with self-loathing, shame.

Many women are just not interested at all in a relationship, they just want to have social fun, because women are socially barred from doing a lot of things by themselves, like going to a dance-club or a movie or a concert or an art museum or try a new restaurant, so a male date, not a relationship, is what they want. That sets the bar lower, and only a distorted fraudulent negative view of oneself would keep a man from seeing that he fits that role nicely - you have 100% of the qualifications to be a fun casual date.

Also, asking a higher-status woman out specifically to "collect" a rejection is a worthwhile action too. One way to see it is that you "collecting" a rejection is a nice ego-boost to a woman, in a world where she is bombarded by negative judgements - so letting her reject you is a gift to her self-esteem. In sales the thinking is that every rejection takes you one step closer to an acceptance. So "collecting" rejections is seen as a purely positive activity.

A big buildup to a minor social interaction is par for the course - negative minds discount slow progress. But slow progress is still progress, and could be the most loving kind of progress, because moving too quick could be an unloving because of anxiety.

Acting "as if" you are already better is a good strategy, when dealing with "spaghettified mess". I laugh at my old attempts to try to "de-bug" my "spaghettified" thought processes from first principals - it would have been better just to act "as if" I was already better and confident and carefree. The "spaghettified mess" will untangle itself over time - because your outer confident actions do *nothing* to reinforce them.

Bleh, don't beat yourself up because of lack of commitment to therapy. It is par for the course. You are laying down the strong foundation for a later sound commitment, as you keep trying and keep trying and keep trying.

Rejection and break-up are scary - but the realistic way to view them is every step up or step down simply trades one set of problems/challenges for another set of problems/challenges. The individual step-up or step-down doesn't really matter - like the stock-market daily movement of prices really doesn't matter. Over the long term, with slow steady work, you will trade-up from one set of problems/challenges to another set of problems/challenges of a higher quality. I am happy with my long-term relationship, but it is not easy properly honoring a spouse in good and bad and daily struggles.

It would be a bizarre set of circumstances that would not reward you for slow steady work on self-improvement. *THAT* is what you have over a factory worker in China, or a beggar on the streets of India. You yourself feel how depression/anxiety can make you miserable, regardless of first-world circumstance, but you do have the very very very strong likelihood of being rewarded for slow steady work on self-improvement.

[psychofarm]

I tend to put off going to the barbershop because I don't really want to answer simple questions about myself like, "How are you doing? Where do you work? Are you married? Any kids? Any plans for the weekend/holiday?" I anticipate ridicule and judgment if I answer these questions honestly. [The only way to do justice to this next part is to use strong language. Fair warning.] I walk in there thinking, I'm such a worthless piece of shit. I'm a pathetic loser and everyone can see it. What kind of a fuck-up am I that I put off getting a haircut for weeks even though I know that it looks like total shit. And it goes on like that. Last week though, I brought this up with my therapist and we worked on this scenario specifically. He let me explain the situation fully and then he helped me find ways to talk about it without using words like "worthless," "pathetic," and "fuck-up."

I totally understand where you're coming from, I can't stand small talk for many of the same reasons. I grow so weary of saying "I'm fine", because I can't bear to lie and say "good" or "great", nor am I at a place where I can be honest either (and really, I can't imagine someone who is nothing more than a professional acquaintance or colleague really wanting to hear my honest story anyway). But I can't be honest with my friends for family either due to similar fears they will be uncomfortable and distance themselves from me, even though I know intellectually it's doing me and them a disservice, and if they truly care about me they won't have this reaction.

I'm glad you're able to identify your thoughts so you can begin to combat them, I'm not yet at a point where I can articulate them myself. I tend to become flooded with anxiety, and my thoughts are so reflexive and come on so quickly, probably multiple thoughts simultaneously, that I can't pick out a single one of them. I've sat down and tried writing them out before, and I find myself more or less making them up and filling in the gaps just to complete the exercise. I end up with much of the same language as yourself, but I don't know if these are the truly the thoughts as they occur or my reconstruction of them after the fact, and I'm left feeling drained and exhausted afterwords.

Perhaps my brain is still clouded from drug abuse, or maybe there is something else more complicated going on, I'm really not sure.

[psychofarm]

Thanks for your wisdom, y manuel_moe_g, hopefully someday I'll be in a place to use it.

[dare i say it]

But I can't be honest with my friends or family either due to similar fears they will be uncomfortable and distance themselves from me, even though I know intellectually it's doing me and them a disservice.

Hmmm, that sounds way too much like something I would say. You're not doing me a disservice by being honest about how you feel. I promise. I feel honored that people trust me enough to share painful things about themselves.

When I tell people how I really feel, first I have to notice it and pay attention to it. That's hard. Then I have to put it into words, and that's hard. Then I have to allow myself to be overwhelmed for a moment by the flood of emotions that usually comes out of me. That's not easy. It sucks, but I think it's part of the deal. Eventually, I got tired of feeling like crap so I found ways to start letting it out. I am very careful about when, where, and with whom I open up. At a minimum, my therapist and the folks in this forum are available to listen.* Forum members are here voluntarily and therapists entered their profession on purpose. It's your call though how much of that you want to try.


*I suggest one ground rule. If someone's life is in imminent suicidal danger, many in this forum are able to continue to listen, perhaps in PMs, but I think it's important to insist on outside help too--include the therapist, the doctor, a crisis hotline, or at the very least a trusted adult who can be physically present to keep that person alive. I would expect others to do the same for me. http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ (US) http://www.befrienders.org/ (Worldwide)