frozen

[manuel_moe_g]

but when i was younger and thought it made me so special and creative being so tragic. perhaps i need to sue Morrissey?

This is the major reason why I stopped listening to much of the music I grew up with, because I just couldn't see how I could improve myself while giving any attention to that negative mindset.

Thanks for the picture of you dog! All the best!

[Powerpac7]

It's been a while since I posted here. Selfishly I wanted to start a new thread: "all about me". But in reading this posting I realize that it speaks of my pain as well and so it seemed fitting that I get the fuck outside of myself and contribute to someone's story.

Frozen, you describe the way I would describe myself right now. Not only because I am literally in the frozen midwest where temps are sub zero, but because I've reached the point of numbness where I just don't feel.

Paul, your podcast is a gift...and I know this is not a replacement for therapy. But I'm at the point where reading hurts, writing hurts, sleeping hurts, thinking hurts. I find joy in nothing. Having packed up all my dreams, successes, and hopes for my future I lie on the bed of a little room in my parents basement. Hording food, because I can't stop eating. Working out obsessively every morning because I can't stop eating. Submitting job applications for soul-sucking sales jobs that I fear will bring me to the point of doing harm out of the realization that I've gone from the top of a career to the basement.

I have gone to a new GP here who is very sympathetic. I don't want a GP prescribing psych meds. That's like asking a GP to perform heart surgery. I can't afford a therapist so psychiatrist will be the only route. But I DON"T WANT TO GO BACK ON MEDS. They have never worked. Adverse reactions to all 8 I've taken up to now has led the Dr.'s to conclude that my body metabolizes them in such a way that I am non responsive. I get all the side effects, none of the benifits. This time around the GP suggests Ramerin (sp?). Weight gain side effects means I won't take it because I can't stop eating. I mean, I literally am plugging up pain with food. I hate being around people. My sibblings, non supportive.

Love my folks. Dote on them daily. Never realized how hateful my mom can be though. Not hateful...selfish. "Do you have any idea what this is doing to me?" she asks? Hello mom...this ISN"T ABOUT YOU!!. Mom says: I see they are hiring at Walmart. Broadway to Walmart and you think I"m going to find fulfillment?

I just want validation from those who are my family, and who can say: "you don't have to be any way but who and where you are right now". Instead I get: "don't be rude" "get up here and visit", "fake a friendship with them".

I've been here two months and I truly wish that I would just be taken in the night through some bizarre heart failure. Too chicken to hurt myself right now, as Paul said in this past podcast..>I'm at a point in my life where if I were on a plane I would not mind in the least if it went down with me on it. I just want this pain, sorry, disappointment, feeling of failure, inadequacy, of utter self loathing to stop.

I was asked to perform at an event for free. I couldn't do it. My ego wouldn't let me. My self worth is so far in the crapper that I loath everything that I create. It's substandard. Moreover, I don't want to be the "entertainment" right now..I want people to know I'm not well.

And so, I simply said: "I'm not ok. And I can't get it together to be entertaining right now".

I need permission to hurt. To be unemployed. To eat, to stuff my face. To cry, to sleep. to hide. To hurt.

My god....I don't know what to do.

Paul, I downloaded the book you suggested as reading in this weeks podcast with Karma. It hurts to think about reading it. Its on my laptop and I don't want to read another fucking self help book that tells me that the answers lie within.

For 20 years I believed that and here is where those answers have led me. To the basement, with pain, frozen, and more questions with no answers. And unemployed.

I'm sorry for ranting. You see, I can't do this without feeling guilty that someone is going to read this and say "oh, get over yourself dude". Truth is...I'm so over myself, I don't care what happens to me any more.

I hurt damn it...I just hurt. I gave up on myself. I've come here to run away from life, in to the arms of a family that makes me feel more isolated than if I were alone. What can they do to fix it? Nothing...except accept me, rather than expect me to be that which makes them more comfortable.

I'm not going to get that from them.

[manuel_moe_g]

Hello Powerpac7, welcome to the forum.

Please forgive me in advance for giving you a lame response to your comment. I read the whole thing, and I am not confident that I can honor your situation with my feeble response - all I can do is speak from my own autobiography.

But I'm at the point where reading hurts, writing hurts, sleeping hurts, thinking hurts.

[...] My ego wouldn't let me. [...]

I would recommend the audio version of a book Paul spoke about Eckhart Tolle "A New Earth". Don't try to follow along, because it is full of dense writing, just let the words and concepts wash over you as you let your mind drift.

My experience with depression and anxiety is that it crushed me and crushed my identity and crushed my ego to the point where I couldn't bring myself to care if I would be hospitalized or committed when I finally got professional help. This has the advantage of crushing the ego to the point where the ego can no longer be an obstacle to different attempts at recovery, but it is very dangerous, because if you lose just a little more ego you also lose the impulse to preserve the self, so if you gain just a little bit of energy for whatever reason, you risk using that energy to kill yourself in a rational attempt to stop the suffering.

So much better to lovingly wear away the harmful parts of the ego with the language that Eckhart Tolle uses, so it no longer is an obstacle. The ego will impose all sorts of conditions on the types of recovery activities you are allowed to try, and that is just not helpful now. The ego suffers deeply with shame that you have landed in a basement - but actually the basement is a fine place to begin a recovery. There is a lot of historical precedent for walking up out of a basement!

Anyway, enough of my garbage speculation and my lousy advice, let me just relate what thoughts have been helping me lately.

I forgive myself for being so weak and so slow. I embrace my failure and I embrace that my former fantasies of great success had nothing to do with reality and were just self-absorbed grandiosity and that my fantasies actually debilitated me. I embrace external failure, and now I call this "success": my simple earnest work trying to improve myself - and if I actually get any external success, that is just gravy. Sometimes I can only get 3 minutes productive work a day - pathetically insufficient. My anxiety makes me worn out after just a few minutes of the work that I must do - I know what work I must do because it is exactly the work that by just thinking about it makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck. I am way past caring about anyone's judgement because I realize those judging people are the exact same people who are unable or unwilling to help me when it feels like my insides have been scooped out. I forgive myself for doing the best I can, not because I am coddling myself, but because I am denying myself an excuse to give up and back-slide.

Where you are right now is a terrible place, and you have far fewer resources than I did when I was at my lowest, so I realize my words are pathetic and don't properly honor your pain. Please take care, all the best, good luck to you.

[Powerpac7]

Thank you Moe, for what is anything but a useless response. I've just returned from seeing the new Doctor here. It was my priority that I find a GP who could then move me into proper psych. care. I had been asked to perform at an event (for free. NOTE: see "ego-crushing") by an old professor/mentor of mine. Rather than come up with a lame excuse I felt, having known him for 20+ years to simply say: "look, I"m going to be honest. I'm not well. I'm not well at all. And I can't get myself together to appear in front of people and do the very thing I hide behind so people think I'm fine..which is entertain) It was he who fast tracked me to one of the highest regarded GP's who is not taking new patients..but agreed to take me. This man, takes mental health very seriously and works in tandem with several people in the mental health profession.

I am non-response to meds, by clinical diagnosis. ECT has been raised. This is the old electro shock therapy, with improved methods. I'm certainly not rushing into it, but would be grateful if anyone out there has any experience, sharing yours with me! In any event. I am trying. But it hurts to get out there, and I come home exhausted. I just ate a piece of my moms pie. Well, a sliver really. Already, I'm hating myself and can't wait to get to the gym to work it off in the morning.

But your words ring true Moe....ego crushing, as painful as it is, may prove to be of benefit. I just don't know what the other side looks like.

When I was 30 I was making 6 figures a year in the entertainment industry, with a beach house in Hawaii (albeit rented) for a year. I was still depressed. But as Ella Fitzgerald is quoted as saying (and I paraphrase) "Honey, I've been down and poor, and down and rich, and I'd much rather be down and rich!". Well I wasn't rich, but money wasn't an issue, and I certainly wasn't living in my parents basement. Friends who are now wildly successful with their own houses, and big careers were barely making a success at that point. And my ego was in high gear. I was confident.

Now the tables have turned.

I still want a place in my industry. But not at the expense of my authentic self.

I went for a lame, minimum wage sales job. I sat in the interview doing my best fake job and you could see the faces of the people interviewing me. They didn't know what to do. Why would someone with this amazing career want to work here. In my head I thought: "I don't. This job would be the thing to push me over the edge, no matter how brief my stay". I'd almost rather not make it through this that stand behind a cash register bagging purchases for people.

Not because I think people who do that are garbage. But because I believe I'm capable of more. And I try. I've applied for hundreds of interesting meaningful jobs where I think i could be of great use. But no replies.

I'm tired of trying. I'm tired. I'm tired of complaining about being tired. I'm tired of things not changing. And I'm about to face Christmas with some very verbally abusive family members who will descend upon a house where I am stuck in the basement. Everyone ready and willing to remind me again..."Ya know what's wrong with you don't you?"

My mom asked if I got a good report from the doctor when I returned today. When I told her I hadn't gone to see him for a report, she simply replied "never mind then". That's code for her saying "I'm almost sure I don't want to know what you are going through because I can't take it, and it might mean that I (my mom) is not the only one who feels hurt". Her go to answer to everything is: "do you have any idea how it makes me feel when...."

So I keep it all a secret.

As for downloading the audio book version of the book Paul recommended. I did that actually yesterday. I realized I was simply not going to focus on the printed page.

So you see, I try. For a few minutes a day I pull myself up to try...and then I recoil and hide, exhausted as if I've run a marathon.

I bore myself with this pain. Yet it's not going any where any time soon.

Blessing to you all for the support. I realize this is not a substitute for professional help. I'm just reaching out through the magic of the internet.

[manuel_moe_g]

It was he who fast tracked me to one of the highest regarded GP's who is not taking new patients..but agreed to take me. This man, takes mental health very seriously and works in tandem with several people in the mental health profession.

Whoa, this is a loving friend and a ray of light. I am so happy for you.

I'm certainly not rushing into it, but would be grateful if anyone out there has any experience, sharing yours with me!

My experience with treatment is that it opens a brief window where it becomes easier to do the hard work of self-improvement. I also have a body that breaks down so efficiently the medications that are supposed to lift my mood - I was on a mega-dose of lithium and my blood tests would come back showing only a trace amount in my bloodstream. My medication combination just stabilizes me and very slightly lifts my mood. I work on doing all the rest with cognitive therapy techniques - self administered from books because I don't have much confidence in mental health psychology professionals - it is just too crushing to me when I meet with a psychology professional who is completely ineffectual, and they really don't care enough to improve their skills.

When I told her I hadn't gone to see him for a report, she simply replied "never mind then". That's code for her saying "I'm almost sure I don't want to know what you are going through because I can't take it, and it might mean that I (my mom) is not the only one who feels hurt". Her go to answer to everything is: "do you have any idea how it makes me feel when...."

I have no advice for this, but I want to honor your pain.

For a few minutes a day I pull myself up to try...and then I recoil and hide, exhausted as if I've run a marathon.

This is actually a good sign. The exhaustion is a sign that your intuition is sound about what work is the most important for your future. I am so glad you are taking loving action for yourself.

All the best, cheers!

[snowflake]

Powrpac,
i am so sad to read you are in my dark well.

I would have written earlier, but i was away, and wanted you to know, i have found some lost a trace of hope, and feel better. I never though i would be saying this again.

so.. here are my notes from the loony bin:


it kept getting worst, and worst, i was nearly gone, i guess the official term is "passive suicide", i just stopped eating and waited for an earthquake. My friend checked me to a psych ward, I thought years there could not fix me, but its only been 5 days, and im back home, and actually so much stronger...all i was wanted ECT but a little CBT gave me so much clarity, i havend felt so loved and supported or laughed for so long.
And no, i actually didnt even get any meds,[/b[/i]] just knowing i am not alone, seeing other's tears, hurting for them rather than myself, wanting so bad to fix everyone, everything, and the wonderful kindness of the strangers was all i needed.

I know its hard to let go of the past, adapt ,but its the nature of all things to dissolve- every cell in our body, relationships, feelings, luckily even our sadness; i try to quote one of my favorite songs, "all things go, all things grow", as its not decay, but just a cycle, a chance for a change.

i thought if only i could move to NYC and make it, whatever that was suppose to mean, have a decent job, all the dresses i wanted, even a 6 figure salary, everything would be perfect. no need to mention i was so wrong...


have you tried any support groups? I dont think such drastic measures would have even been necessary had i not isolated, tried reaching out to others suffering from the same issues , i was just shocked as almost every sentence i heard from others was exactly how i felt. my pain was not so extraordinary after all. i hope i find some other part of me that is- not extrodinary- but that i can just simply love?

perhaps its something you could try before ECT? i love the idea of having other people who know my sorrow, hopelessness, terror, there, vs. a therapist, who sometimes seem so droid like, cope so well- or at least pretend to, how could they ever comprehend what i am or how much i can hurt? I think thats why this show and paul and this forum have been such lifesavers. try to be strong. please.

[manuel_moe_g]

My friend checked me to a psych ward, I thought years there could not fix me, but its only been 5 days, and im back home, and actually so much stronger...all i was wanted ECT but a little CBT gave me so much clarity, i havend felt so loved and supported or laughed for so long.

Wow, that is a true friend, and a true blessing came into your life, I am so glad to hear! All the very best!

[dare i say it]

Frozen, I have experienced emotions that are essentially the same as the ones you expressed in your original post. I know more about being suicidal than I would wish on my worst enemy. I know precisely what it's like to live and think like the character in the Vonnegut passage you quoted. It is SO encouraging that you came from such a dark place and are now doing much better. As for me, I've crawled part way out of that "dreary well" and I don't ever intend to turn back.

Dan

[dare i say it]

Powerpac7, I've just read this whole forum thread. It strikes me how closely I can identify with many of the things you're going through. I've been successful in the past and then I had to move back with my parents. I don't know what I can offer you that will be useful, but I'm going to try anyway.

I've had ECT. You may already know some of this, but it's not at all painful, you're unconscious when it happens and you don't even move during the treatment. It's nothing like those scenes from "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" and "A Beautiful Mind." I was really concerned beforehand about memory loss or some other terrible thing happening to my brain, but I had zero side effects. I guess what I'm saying is that it's probably best not to rule out any of your options.

I've had similar difficulties with my parents. There could be any number of reasons why they aren't able/willing to be more supportive of your recovery. I could only speculate. Eventually, with my parents, I just had to accept the fact that there were only certain kinds of help that they would be able/willing to give me and that was it. I had a place to crash. I had fewer bills to pay. I desperately wanted to tell them how much I was hurting, but I never did because I honestly don't think that would have gone well. My parents just don't have the skills to know what to do with that kind of conversation.

I truly hope this helps in some small way. I can say from experience that the hopelessness that comes with depression is an illusion. (That doesn't mean the pain isn't real. I know it's real. Oh, do I ever!) But it does mean that it can get better. Continue to be strong. Keep reaching out for help.

Dan

[manuel_moe_g]

Thanks for writing these comments, Dan, they are very helpful to me.