YOU ARE NOT ALONE - A companion online community discussion board for The Mental Illness Happy Hour podcast with Paul Gilmartin

Hello Everyone,

I have been binge listening to the Mental Illness Happy Hour and I am up to Episode 134: Transgender Listener. With every podcast I have hoped to find the answer to my daily obsession of what to do about my various family relationships with 1) my father, 2) my mother, 3) my sister, 4) brother1, 5) brother2, 6) brother3, 7) brother4, 8) daughter, 9) grandson, 10) son1, 11) aunt1|father, 12) aunt2|father, 13) ex-husband. Let's just leave all the in-laws out of this, shall we?

At the heart of my issues is a deeply held sense of not belonging to my family. , To explain this feeling, I make a daily inventory of whichever family member comes to mind, listing their shortcomings to confirm that my choice to stay away from them is the next right thing to do. However, when the entire list is compiled, I realize how exhausting it is to keep all these people out of my life.

I am now 58 years old and my family relationships can be characterized by the degrees of mental illness, alcoholism, drug addiction, sexual abuse, emotional incest, anxiety, depression, workaholism and post traumatic stress that knit these relationships together.

I first entered a therapeutic relationship with a counsellor at the age of 28 when I was having severe post partum depression. Since then I have worked periodically with a variety of therapists and for the last 18 years, with recovery support groups, to help me cope with day to day life.

There is much more to tell and share, and I am looking forward to being able to talk about the various events, encounters, and wreckage that have brought me to this forum today. Just for today my greatest problem is constantly obsessing about who to talk to in my family, what to say, and what I imagine they will say, and what I imagine they will do. Repeat. Ad nauseam. I am feeling so alienated right now and it is causing me a great deal of emotional pain and physical exhaustion.

I have started writing about my process on a blog, it is here http://irrationalpersistance.wordpress.com.

I trust all are well and I hope to find a place to talk about the things that no one in my family is capable of addressing.

All the best!

Irrational Persistance

All the best to you, irrationalpersist. We here are cheering for you and for your greatest today and tomorrow. Here is wishing you peace and comfort.

Thanks for the welcome Manuel_Moe_G! I have been trying to figure out how this forum works and would appreciate some tips. I notice there are a lot of topics and threads, but not all of them are active. Can you fill me in on the general practice on the board? How to participants stay current with each other? How do they know where the active posting is taking place? Are there a few threads that are more active than others? I find the fragmentation of the board difficult to navigate and I wonder how others are handling it.

I read the posting guidelines, and I have been navigating around the site, looking for current threads. Do you have a method for getting an alert when a new posting is logged?

Thanks!

Irrational Persistance (IP)

"view active topics" is how most people view the board, so don't worry about posting on a seemingly dormant thread, we will see it.

Hey! Welcome.

First up, I encourage you to congratulate yourself on surviving 58 years of all those things you listed. That is a real accomplishment!

As far as suggestions, here is the best I can come up: boundaries. Which is easier said than done.

From what I have observed of families, the top drama-making situations seem to be: money, sex, holidays, religion, followed by racism (and generalized bigotries of all varieties). I don't know how much that applies to your situation.

Were I to generalize even further, I'd guess that if money, not permitting verbal abuse, and religion can be taken care of, that would reduce 75% of drama. I am just guessing.

Two things that help me when handling difficult conversations (which it sounds like you might be headed for) are:

1. Scripting
2. Bookending

In scripting I'll will write out the bullet points of what I want to say, call/email/text a friend to tell them what I am going to say, have the big conversation, then follow up with the friend, completing the bookend.

Here are some other tough love and boundaries phrases I've learned. Feel free to use them early and often:

"No."
"I am not discussing that, and not discussing not discussing it."

Warning! I do the following imperfectly, very imperfectly, so take it with a grain of salt :

Often I struggle with taking others' inventories, and ruminating about who said what, or what they might say.

In general, I have found, it is easier and happier in the long run to have that painful conversation. And much like throwing up with food poisoning, I have found it useful to get every last little bit out.

After I got sober and cleared the fog, I said this to about five or ten people: "Look, I don't know if it was my fault or your fault, but whatever differences we have, let's air them all right now, right here. Let's not leave anything out. If we part as friends, fine. If we part as not-friends, that's okay also. Either way, let's say everything we have to say. You can start right now by saying whatever you want to me, and I will listen for as long as you want to speak."

Believe it or not, IP, people really liked hearing that, and alot of healing followed. In fact I grew closer to everyone I had those conversations with.

Of course, to have such a conversation requires that the other person have a certain level of maturity, responsibility, and ability to see realities outside themselves.

For alot of other people, who this stuff simply isn't worth getting into, I will smile when I see them, let them say whatever they want, and then try to move on with my day. Again, I do these imperfectly.

What I really like is that you can explain your situation clearly and even with a sense of humor or detachment, in a very appropriate way.

If you can stomach it, admit fault where you can, even if it is in a very limited and narrowly defined way. If you can get the other person to admit that they also made mistakes, then sometimes that is the best you can hope for.

And if you have any doubts, even 1%, that the person will respond angrily or violently, I suggest you not have said tough conversation. Another thing that helps me is to define how long I'll resent someone for something. It was a big deal for me to stop resenting people for wrongs done to me up to 1996. Then getting it to resentments up to 2012 was another huge deal. I try, however imperfectly (trust me), to put an expiration date on resentments. For example, I have a 20 year HS reunion next week, so whatever happened back then is over and forgiven: people change. Unless I need to make something right by apologizing.

Lastly, and though this isn't moral or good, I find it extremely rewarding to give someone the middle finger as soon as I am out of anyone's sight. Not recommended, spiritually, but sooo satisfying.

I hope things get better for you. Keep posting. I'll look forward to seeing your progress. Have those tough conversations. Be willing to admit where you were wrong. Good luck.

Thanks, Oak! Food for thought.

Surprisingly, the points of tension in my family have less to do with outside issues and more to do with individual talent and adequacy. Thus, the kinds of slings and arrows that will come flying at me are more in the form of undermining my confidence, of making me feel less than, of making me feel inadequate.

There is a great post elsewhere on the forum about family relationships and the poster was sick and tired of feeling like an after thought, of never being considered for making plans, for being tagged onto the ends of things. I can't remember exactly, but I have this, and then also the hard and fast expectation that I am going to show up to be part of the family photo. If I'm not there, I am shutting family out. If I am there, I am treated like the broken, less than second daughter and little sister. The hypocrisy that drives me tired is that I am the one that wants to talk through the difficulties and hard experiences that continue to drive the addiction, fear, and family alienation. But I am cast in the role of the one who is too fragile to meet the standards of the family - because I won't just pull on a mask and pretend nothing happened and this is what family is - a group of strangers who look good on stage and don't actually talk to each other except in the form of ritualized conversations. Even the music they play is ritualized, they have been playing the same pieces since I was a little girl.

My family does not have ANY substantive conversations. Every interaction is pretty much boast-news sharing and adventure swapping. Never, ever, ever anything about the actual emotional, mental and psychological health of the family.

Hey! Welcome.

First up, I encourage you to congratulate yourself on surviving 58 years of all those things you listed. That is a real accomplishment!

boundaries

Two things that help me when handling difficult conversations (which it sounds like you might be headed for) are:

1. Scripting
2. Bookending

What I need to be prepared for is the nickel sag blindsiding me from the back, the comment or statement about me that has nothing to do with me and everything to do with maintaining the fiction that I am the weak one in the family. I get hurt and angry, which is what these statements are intended to do. I have been the emotional pressure release valve in this family for decades.

What I need is a script that I can practice for those casually cruel comments that get dropped out of nowhere. I also need a script for downright rude modes of address toward me - bullying, jeering, unfriendly teasing. Also, I had my father's new wife serve me a meal that had been cooked in alcohol a couple of Christmas' ago. He knows I am in recovery, but he just does not put me first or take my feelings or needs into account.

Other incidents I will witness at family gatherings: excessive drinking and then people expecting to drive home; emotional incest between a couple of mother/son pairs; bullying between my youngest brother and his wife; insensitive comments from one of my other brothers, and then the promises with no intention to keep them from my alcoholic brother. Yes, I have four brothers.

Another recent incident that was deeply uncomfortable was my Mom hiking her skirt up over her knees (she is 83 I blogged about the incident here http://irrationalpersistance.wordpress. ... alillness/. One other behaviour that has caught me flat footed is done by my sister. She is a professional singer/songwriter and will sing AT you anywhere, anytime to share a new song. But she will also push to have everyone else sing with her too, and even dance. On New Years she would not let the party end, forcing my elderly mother, aunt and uncle to stay standing, singing and dancing as she kept going ONE MORE TIME. She wasn't even drinking. Just high drive and force of personality.

"No."
"I am not discussing that, and not discussing not discussing it."

This is the practice I need!

Often I struggle with taking others' inventories, and ruminating about who said what, or what they might say.

I struggle with taking others' emotional inventories and then taking on their emotional well-being as my responsibility. Ugh. Exhausting.

"Look, I don't know if it was my fault or your fault, but whatever differences we have, let's air them all right now, right here. Let's not leave anything out. If we part as friends, fine. If we part as not-friends, that's okay also. Either way, let's say everything we have to say. You can start right now by saying whatever you want to me, and I will listen for as long as you want to speak."

Brilliant, I have been thinking about doing something like this but wasn't sure it would be worth the effort. Everyone is not the same, so it really has to be sorted out on a case by case basis.

Another thing that helps me is to define how long I'll resent someone for something. It was a big deal for me to stop resenting people for wrongs done to me up to 1996. Then getting it to resentments up to 2012 was another huge deal. I try, however imperfectly (trust me), to put an expiration date on resentments.

I love this idea, especially in a family where nothing has been resolved since the mid-60s.

I really appreciate being able to work through these issues with other people who are facing the same challenges. I am feeling better already and better equipped to do the research and gather information.

I work with an 85 lb reactive shepherd cross and he has been giving me lessons in assertiveness and calm patience in shit storms of reactivity. My trainer, a very patient and kind dog handler, would comfort me when I was upset with yet another incident, "in the blink of an eye". "It's just information," she would say, "He is letting you know what he can handle and where his limits are."

I am feeling more courageous to enter the fray, and do my own sociological study of my family. Kind of looking forward to it.

IP

Amazing posts by both IP and Oak.
IP - I fully agree with Oak - it is amazing that you have gotten this far with so many issues in your family. Also, I am amazed that you still consider speaking with them. Wow, is just about all I can say. Be proud of your strength at dealing with them. I am in awe of your coping skills.
Binge listening describes the first 5 weeks after I found the mental pod podcasts. Such an apt description. I already had a podcast addiction, so binge listening happens, but usually only with the really fascinating podcasts.
I must admit that I am a novice to taking on these types of conversations – literally, I haven’t had these conversations with others in this way. I’m slowly having conversations about other things we’ve discussed in other posts-telling friends about my situation and asking for their support during my journey. So, pretty easy conversations to have compared to challenging friends and family about their own behavior and mutual issues in a small and big picture way.
Oak’s recommendations seem great for all of us. The list you had seemed very long and like a few of those people are bound to be difficult to have such conversations with – the bullying that you talked about might have been my second indication with the first being the simple recognition that a proportion of people cannot handle discussing their issues. With that in mind, I would also encourage you to seek out a support group and consider therapy (in case Paul hasn’t mentioned these enough during your binge listening).
I also think that Oak’s point about having these discussions one on one are critical – it sounds like you see these people periodically in large groups and avoid them otherwise – not a bad idea, but if you want headway, it will take having these conversations as one on ones and without the family close by to immediately turn to in response. Consider either 1)picking off the simplest and most guilt ridden one first and work your way up or 2) chosen the one that you care for the least / are most willing to give up. i.e. at no point should your children be one of the first unless the issues are the easiest to talk through and they are the most reasonable ones on the list. Get a few “easy” confrontational conversations under your belt.
Also, it seems like you should add a caveat to Oak’s discussion about not having individual discussions with people who will act angrily. Please don’t have these conversations with people who are likely to act in a bullying, berating or condescending way – at least until you have started to make some serious headway and feel more confident in your ability to field these conversations.
I am so sorry that your family situation is so hard and wish you the best of luck as your start this process. I am lucky that mostly my extended family does pretty well—we have a few people who we all have to swallow behavior from, but I don’t think most of us obsess about those issues, so it’s a different level of coping and the issues are obviously less prevalent that what you’re dealing with. I have a few disagreements with my family, but we all treat these as jokes - I'm the black sheep of the family in terms of religion, politics, urban/rural living, etc.
I am glad to hear that you are getting lessons from working with this large dog….pets and people can teach us so much about responses, boundaries and working through life slowly.
Great artwork, by the by. I’m thinking good thoughts for you and your future.

Thanks for your support and perspectives. It has been purely crazy-making to come from such a dysfunctional family and to have the family culture insist, "This is normal. We aren't going to talk about it." "What's the matter with you anyway?"

The only reason I was able to identify the problems in my family was through intensive work with a therapist who pointed out, "That is abandonment." "That is betrayal." "That is neglect." "That is abuse." "That is hypocrisy." "That is hurtful." "That is undermining." "That is controlling." when I would recount experiences I was having with different family members. Without her help I would have continued to believe it was all my fault and if only I could change enough I could feel a sense of belonging to this family.

I have long known the therapeutic value of one addict helping another. I am now learning the therapeutic value of one mentally ill person helping another. Since I have started blogging and sharing on this forum I have noticed my obsessive thinking about family, and my compulsion to reach out to one of my worst abusers has lessened.

I am also accepting the idea that I really cannot attend anymore family gatherings. I do not feel safe at them. But I can have one to one meetings where it is easier for me to track the quality and characteristics of the communication. Also, in one to one meetings there is no possibility of a mob mentality taking over, turning me into a scapegoat. I have arranged a coffee date with my brother and his wife for Saturday morning. They host a lot of family gatherings and it has come to my attention of late that they fear I am "freezing them out" because I have not been attending. I am going to explain to them that I don't enjoy large family gatherings and that I won't be attending them in the future, but that I am happy to go for a dog walk or coffee outing anytime.

Wish me luck!

IP

human connection is the meaning of life. here's another big secret: everybody's family is choc full of just straight up peices of shit, and spending time making a mental checklist of everyone's short comings is a complete waste of time. When I was 4 years old, my mother married a bad man. he did things, let your imagination fly, i have to say the worst was putting ciggarettes out on my arm...up and down, 13 in all...i say its the worst because everyday i wake up and see the scars. when i meet new people i see the questions in there eyes, but explaining it to my kids was the worst. I will never see him again and wanting to culminate any kind of relationship with him would be crazy. But i hope he has people in his family that care for him no matter what. when all this was happening, my mother was complacent. as a child, i clung to her still, but as an adolescent, after she left him, alot of anger came out of me that i'd been holding on to for a long time towards her. she abandonded me at 14. she is not a bad person, just weak, and she felt she couldnt hold on to these feelings of guilt and if i insisted on reminding her of it she didnt want to be around me. I am 29 and have children of my own, and although i will never have the hallmark channel mom/daughter realationship with her, I mourn the fact that she's not in some way a part of my life. I dont beleive you should dismiss your family so readily, and if you have so many problems with what seems like all the members of your family.....maybe some of it is you....not judging just an observation

the point im trying to make here is that some things like incest rape molestation, abuse cannot be reasoned with. mental illness, pain expressing itself by lashing out, drug addiction, these are things that require compassion and compent medical care, and not for you to just write them off.....in my opinion\