Dr. Zucker #1

[stacib]

Paul, I would be super surprised if you hear anyone in this forum admit they have thought of hurting a child in a sexual way.

I can tell you that you are not alone on this. I mentor kids in drug rehab and pretty much all of them have a story similar to the one you describe, and I witnessed some unhealthy behavior at one of my 'kids' homes last weekend. The father went on and on about how he loves his 18 year old daughter, which sounds normal, however witnessing it, I can tell you it was abnormal how he did it, and to do this in front of someone whom he just met. And to go on and on about it. When I asked "S" if her that was normal for her dad, she emphatically said NO.

What I have noted now, as a parent myself of two young boys, that perhaps I need to beef up the boundaries. Once in awhile I help my 8 yr old take a power bath because he is mega dawdler(?) and I think I will just suffer and yell at him to hurry up instead of helping from now on. I will also have more respect for closed doors, but we may have to instil a new rule: no playing electronic gadgets while taking a dump! as the lone female in the house I feel surrounded by males who look to go in their man-cave and use all the bathrooms for quiet time!

So anyway, I thank you for enlightening the moms a bit and that even though our kids bums fit quite nicely into the palms of our hands it time to back off and keep it to hugs (asking permission first to hug and letting them pull away first to indicate its over.)

ps. love Dr. Zuckers advice on dealing with your mom on the moving issue too. She is right, at 84 she will never change, and you will need to look at willing her away in order to cope going forward maybe? No one will fault you for doing that for sure.

[Paul Gilmartin]

Staci,

Thank you for your nice words and your honesty. I really hope that in addition to me moving through this and becoming stronger, other people will benefit by knowing what boys feel and how they're really not much different from girls in many respects. And what excites them isn't necessarily good for them.

So the thought that some moms (and dads) will rethink their boundaries with their kids brings me a TON of happiness, and much like the show, makes me feel like all those "icky moments" I went through weren't for naught.

Parents try to instill in their kids an ability to empathize and picture themselves in other people's shoes, but I think sometimes they forget to do it themselves when it comes to their kids because their kids induce such powerfully complex feelings.

Much Love

Paul

[stephanie6330]

Agreed. Powerful episode. So moving. I am a mom of an 8 year old girl and a 5 year old boy. It is really hard to imagine acting toward my son as your mom acted towards you - it was undeniably wrong. It is so great that you are sharing this with the world - I can't even imagine how many people you are going to help. Love this podcast!

[Paul Gilmartin]

Stephanie,

Thank you. Every mom who tells me what she did was clearly wrong helps me. I don't know if that's healthy to look for other people to validate it, but when I'm trapped in my head and calling myself an irresponsible son, an exaggerator, an attention-whore and a baby, it's nice to hear an opposing opinion. Especially from moms. And especially from people who have themselves experienced some type of creepy or outright abuse.

When you women and moms stick up for me, I feel like that girl on the playground is coming over and hugging me. And I get that feeling I've been looking for my whole life.

Paul

[nikky]

Paul - your podcast is amazing, I love it.... I think this episode really took it to another level... when you told the story at the end about hugging the listener i said to myself "wow, something is happening here" - and something IS happening, I've never heard anything like this - amazing, powerful and wonderful. You deserve all the love the get back from us. You're helping us!

[mitzigaynor]

Hi Paul & listeners,

I've been listening to your podcast for several months - found you on the AV club write-up and have been seriously hooked since then; I think I have gone back and listened to most of the back-catalogue (deep cuts?) but may have missed a few.

Your interview with Dr. Zucker moved me to join the forum and write a note. I'm married to a man who was raised by an abusive father and a co-dependent "victimized" mother. She has never owned up to her accountability in the physical and emotional abuse my husband and his sisters suffered; she has cowered behind her own victimhood; she denies and minimize that there was any abuse and still to this day takes opportunities to make cutting remarks, play guilt trips, and engage in other unhealthy behaviors. My husband does not have much of a relationship with his mother; he avoids contact because he usually hears about all that he has done wrong, how he disappointed her, etc.; if he ever raises any of his issues, he is cut off and told he is being dramatic or selfish. Sound familiar, huh? I mentioned this podcast to him and I hope he will listen to it for perspective.

We are the parents of a 12-year-old boy (only child); he is a great kid although he has Asperger's, which often requires a firm hand. My husband is very good at that - sometimes I fear he is too good and I feel I'm constantly on watch for abusive behavior to appear. He can yell and be harsh; I grew up in a home with a lot of yelling and I really hate it. We both have been to family therapy and my son has had a lot of support so that the yelling has definitely decreased and we try to be more matter-of-fact with consequences, etc.

As for boundaries, as the mother of son (only child as I mentioned) who is hitting puberty, I try to be completely respectful of his needs and not in his face. I knock on his door when closed, I never enter the bathroom when he's in it, I keep myself covered up and my door closed. I don't think I've seen him naked for several years, and only then when we had a medical issue that required it. He still likes to cuddle and be held. He will squeeze up next to me for a back rub or hug while we are watching TV. I feel this is totally appropriate mom-son bonding and I never touch any areas that wouldn't be "public". Nor, thank God, do i have any desire to!

After hearing the show, I did regret a remark I made a few weeks ago when he was super-cuddly and kind of all over me. I said something to him about how he needed to get a girlfriend so he'd really have someone to cuddle with. In hearing your story and Dr. Zucker's therapeutic advice I will be much more aware of connecting mom-son contact to anything sexual like that. I know that Mom-Son is a primary bond and I don't want him to feel he can't come to me for warm physical contact. I don't think it registered too strongly with him (but you never know what a child's inner life is) but in hindsight I feel I was pushing a boundary inappropriately.

Thanks again for the shows and the perspective. I look forward to hearing more from Dr. Zucker and other professionals.

[Sufilizard]

Thanks for this Paul. I finally listened to the latest episode last night during a bout of insomnia - probably shouldn't pick something so compelling when I need to get back to sleep. Like many of your listeners I am grateful for your courage and agree with the many who think Dr. Zucker should become a regular - although I found myself having a little "therapist envy." I'm regularly seeing a therapist for my anxiety and depression, but I sometimes worry that I'm not making much progress. I sometimes think I would do better with a female therapist, but I worry that I'll get kind of crushy and think I'm in love with her. I appreciated your sharing your experience with a female therapist.

Keep up the good work Paul! You are definitely appreciated.

[marathonbar]

I've listened to this episode three times already, and I know I'll listen again. There has got to be some sort of podcasting or journalism award that you can apply for, because this episode would win it. I was so moved by it that I called Paul's message line, which is something I never imagined I'd do because I hate talking on the phone.
Paul, your honesty is simply amazing. In the beginning of the episode, when you said you told your therapist that you were attracted to her, I was blown away. That takes serious balls. I had a therapist who was incredibly handsome. He was a terrific therapist, really helped me a lot, but I stopped seeing him because I felt like I was spending too much time fantasizing about him. I can't imagine ever saying that to him, so I give you major props for being so honest.
I also wanted to comment about your two female friends who held your hands and were with you. That is so, so wonderful and you should take all the joy you can from that. I have two gay male friends who I know I can go to during my dark times. They will hug me and hold my hands and massage my back and it's safe because I know they're not trying to hit on me, they just understand depression and know what I need.
I'm a mom to a five-year-old son and your relationship with your mother breaks my heart. From my perspective, I can say that it's so, so difficult to be a parent. You're always second-guessing yourself and wondering if your actions are going to screw up your kid. I'm not excusing your mother's actions, because she definitely was inappropriate, but I just want to say I'm sure she knows her mistakes. She's undoubtably waging her own wars. We all fuck things up. Good for you for admitting your feelings and choosing to give voice to the feelings that are so gut-wrenching. You will come out on the other side stronger for it.
I've mentioned a book before in another post, and I'd just like to suggest it again: "Unstuck" by Dr. James Gordon. There are techniques in there that are amazing and have helped me in my bleakest times.
Thank you Paul, thank you so much for what you do. If I was there, I'd hug you and wouldn't let go.

[BCZF]

Hey Paul..

Listened to this one twice already... Dont know how you managed to keep it together.. You are loved, just remember that..

[IvyFailure]

Paul,

i've been meaning to post since I listened to this podcast a few days ago. That part towards the end when you said that you sometimes feel like you and your listeners are the same person, well that's how I felt when you started describing your mother's various infractions against you.

I find it hard to determine whether our mothers share the same underlying impetus, but many of the sins are the same. i remember anal temperature taking far too late in life. i remember a public shower around the age of 11 or 12. But the most embarrassing and telling incident, one which I already wrote about in your survey, took place when i was ten years old.

In hindsight, I was just learning to masturbate. I've touched myself in some way for as long as i can remember, but this was probably the first time i started really taking an interest in it. Problem was, I was doing it wrong (fingernails.) This resulted in the base of my penis turning a bright red color.

At some point, my mother saw my bright red penis (inappropriate). She questioned me about it, asked me how it got that way, but rather than tell her that I was the one who did it, i just shut my mouth and stared at the floor. A doctor's appointment was made. At the doctor's office, I remember my pants coming off and my penis being examined with my mother in the room. i don't remember saying anything, and i'm pretty sure i wasn't the one who took the pants off.

So the doctor prescribed an ointment, vitamin e cream. Now here's where it gets rapey. My mother applied the cream to my penis. If it was sexual, i couldn't tell you, because i seem to have blocked it out, like i was trying to block out every moment of that entire incident. But there was unwanted genital lotion application to a pubescent boy with working hands, and that seems like a textbook definition of child molestation to me.

But the thing is, as bad as that incident is, and as much as it typifies so much of my relationship with my mother, I don't feel like that's the worst of it. It's like you said at the end, you don't consider your mother a sexual predator, you're just exhausted. That's how I felt with my mother. She was a person who was so afraid of silences that she chattered constantly to fill the void around her. People in her life learn to be quiet and let her talk for them, because to do otherwise becomes exhausting. Suggest something different than what she wants and she won't contradict you, she'll just question you again and again and again until you give in. After my sister went to college, i remember just being quiet at home and saying as little as possible. I spent a lot of time at college relearning to communicate with people because i had learned to either be completely passive or to mimic her and just assert my will on people and damn their reactions.

It was her domineering personality, the exhaustion, that got to me so much more than the occasional sexual weirdness. However, after listening to your podcast and hearing in your voice the struggle you went through to validate your own feelings of pain and finding the strength to accuse your own mother in public like you did, i still have to ask: for a podcast that is basically teaching people to forgive themselves for their own mental illnesses, don't we also have to learn to forgive our parents' mental illnesses? Because i know my mother's fear and awkwardness come from very real places - she was the child of immigrants who used their native language as a secret code around the house and she slept in her parents' bedroom until 6th grade despite having two older sisters. She kinda had the more fucked up childhood. i'm a parent, and like a lot of listeners, I started reevaluating my own behaviors to my kids after this podcast. But I know i've made mistakes, and I'm curious to know what you think about when a child is healthy to feel hurt and when it's time to forgive.