Episode 105: Ali Handal

[ghughes1980]

I just finished this episode and I'm fuming! What Ali said about her ex and how she reacted to his apartment and his fantasy writing is one of the reasons why I avoid people. You have NO RIGHT to treat someone that way for how they live and what they think. I don't know all the details I grant you that but you know what? Fuck you and the horse you road in on, he should have broken up with you for the invasion of privacy. I am so pissed right now my chest hurts. I avoid interactions with others BECAUSE of people LIKE YOU who would potentially judge me for my thoughts and fantasies. I hope you have worked through this and do not treat your husband that way now, because seriously if you do he should fucking run. Paul WTH man agreeing with her? Come on there are numerous occasions in episodes that you have stated we have no control over what turns us on, well this fucking counts, he did not hurt anyone, he kept his thoughts as fantasy and that should have been that. I should stop writing now before this get's really rant filled and truly hateful, I am so upset.

[nate]

I agree with you. I was wondering if I was the only one feeling this. If he had illegal material then that is obviously wrong, but Ali is the epitome of what I try to avoid in the world, the opposite of a good guest on this great podcast. She is entitled to her feelings about the situation with her ex, but the podcast is about being "bizarrely beautifly fucked up" and not celebrating being judgmental, which this episode was. I would rather hear an interview with the ex-boyfriend.

[Colin]

Agree with above. This may be the first guest I have actively disliked and the first time I've been motivated enough to emerge from my torpor to write here. She seems like one of the people making the rest of us crazier, a narcissistic mess without any serious issues. Is she just trying to promote an album? Would certainly rather have heard from the boyfriend in that early example.

[lance]

I felt the same way. And regarding 'problems', I wish my 'problems' were as banal. Paul, the people who listen to the podcasts and post on the boards have problems that are so profound that just getting out of bed is an accomplishment. Some of us are incapable of obtaining a career doing something enjoyable or making all A's in school no matter how hard we study or try. There have to be people more like the royal us out there that are more relatable.

[grey_machine]

Absolutely agree with all thoughts expressed so far. This woman is a nightmare of the highest order; going on and on about how "hurt" and "ambushed" she was by HIM, after violating HIS privacy, treating him like shit and judging him mercilessly to this day for incredibly personal, private things that had nothing to do with her. Yeah, him writing that story about her sisters and mother was more than a little creepy, but guess what - EVERYone has thoughts and fantasies that if their S.O. found out about they'd never want to speak to them again.

I couldn't get more than 45 minutes into this one; just way too irritating and uninteresting. Please Paul, never have this intensely unlikeable person back on the show.

[CharlotteC]

I have to say I disagree with Paul on this one. He said a person should talk to a therapist if his sexual fantasies are "asocial" and if he suspects people would judge him if they knew. Instead, this guy "decided to keep it to himself and feed it in private," and that's a problem.

Sorry, but no. My fantasies are asocial as hell, but they are my business. Would people judge me if they knew I wrote stories about pubescent boys and girls having sex with older men? You bet. Should I care? No way. I have every right to keep them to myself, and every right to feed them privately. They turn me on, and they probably help me deal with the sexual abuse I suffered as a child. They hurt no one, and are nobody's business but my own.

Also, I'm not convinced the ex-boyfriend was a pedophile (or hebephile). It sounded like she was just guessing about the pictures. The dirty story he wrote involving her little sisters and mom was creepy, sure, but it didn't set my alarm bells ringing. My stories might seem creepy to others too, but my Lolita/Lolito fantasies are just that. I've got some experience with pedophiles/hebephiles, unfortunately, and I don't like it when those accusations are thrown around without proof. There was no evidence that this guy ever acted out with her mom or sisters.

Finally, I know Ali's original intentions were good, but she said she had a big problem with "being lied to and having information kept from me." That sounds controlling. To get personal again, many years ago I had a boyfriend who read my diary. He was a textbook narcissist, and like Ali, what bothered him most was that he wasn't in it. So, he did just what she did: punished and manipulated me psychologically for it. It was SUCH a violation, and really messed me up. Part of me really feels bad for Ali's ex-boyfriend.

I do like that Paul talked about the "gray area" of where her unintended snooping ends and his privacy begins. I don't think he let her entirely off the hook. Either way, I really don't think her problems sounded all that bad, aside from her perfectionism, which I can relate to. What bothered me most was that she painted herself as some kind of traumatized victim of her ex-boyfriend's "disgusting, weird" fantasies and his mental health problems. This made me feel like a bit of a freak myself, and I resent that. I agree with Nate: the ex-boyfriend's story is probably a lot more interesting.

[ghughes1980]

I just finished the interview again and I'm sorry but there is no grey area here, none. Ali did the violating then tortured this guy with this. Then she blamed him again after her mother and sister found the info that she (Ali) stole from this guy. So guess what Ali YOU are the one with the problem. She keeps mentioning he lied to her over and over? Uh he didn't lie to you at all, if you don't like him using drugs then LEAVE don't bitch and moan and use this story he wrote to torture him. That's on you and you are the one who needs help. If people disagree with me fine, these are my thoughts and I own them!

[Paul Gilmartin]

Thank you all for posting your honest feelings about this. I think this episode highlights how difficult it can be to navigate something as complex as the mingling of personal fantasies, illegal pornography and rights to privacy.

I felt I stood up for the boyfriend's right to have his own fantasies, writings and his own privacy. But I also felt that Ali's intent was not to snoop rather to do something nice for her boyfriend, and that when she saw magazine photos of girls who didn't seem to be of legal age, it became a different situation. She was now dealing with someone who was potentially involved in underage pornography, which is vastly different than written erotica about minors. Because children are hurt in the making of pornographic pictures. I think many of us have stumbled across things or even lingered on things on the internet that made us feel bad about ourselves, but having a magazine of it is a much bigger issue since it involves actively seeking and a more conscious breaking of the law, hence a more serious issue in my opinion, and not one that can be justified as merely impulsive, personal or private. It ceases being private when a minors rights are violated.

I don't know the details of the pictures. Maybe that were innocent nudist photos. But my reaction in hearing it made me picture something not innocent, because of the objectifying nature of the cut out body parts of the women in the other photos. I could be wrong.

I then thought her story was compelling in how she chose to handle it and perpetuate herself as feeling wronged, which can be it's own kind of sickness. I appreciate that she copped to that. I found her to be very open and honest and human.

I stand by my belief that contributing to the business of photographic pornography involving minors is not a personal issue. It ceases being a personal issue once you harm others. And I would ask that you extend the same compassion to her that you extend to her ex. I feel I extended compassion to both of them. I also hope you extend compassion to me because I am not perfect. I will never be. I filter everything through my own shit and do the best I can. Sometimes it's hard because things can get very complicated and gray. And that's why I think her episode is worthy of airing. Because it's complicated and not easily parsed. Life is complicated and not easily parsed.

But I am honored that you feel passionately and connect to the podcast, whether you love something or it pisses you off. I pray I can hold you as listeners when you're pissed because I'd like to think I've worked hard to earn your trust.

Paul

[ghughes1980]

Did she ever ask him the source of his little art project? Did he say that these pictures where illegal? It sounded to me like she jumped to the conclusion they where because she was already fixated on how "disgusting" he was. It sounds like rationalization from a brat who wasn't in his fantasy so she decided he was a criminal. Therefore he deserved to be manipulated and tortured by her because she felt justified. If she thought strongly enough that these where criminal acts then why not go to the police? She didn't what she did was vindictive and wrong. If they where illegal the therapist they went to had a duty to report him. If that didn't happen, I'm on the boyfriend's side still. This seems pretty cut and dry good thing he didn't end up on some registry list because Ali felt like being a twat.

I wouldn't even start an argument about the story, it's not illegal even now let alone in the 80's or 90's or when ever this incident occurred. Courts are still wrestling with the idea of punishing someone criminally for thoughts, it hasn't happened yet and probably won't. So hanging him out to dry on the story alone is the behavior of a person just looking to start a fight and ruin a relationship.

[Fredbo]

I listened to this episode in two parts. At first I wasn't sure how I felt about what I was hearing and paused at the ad. Then I read this thread and really began to feel anger towards this Ali Handal. Now I've just finished listening to her interview and she makes me want to vomit in my mouth. I feel like this whole episode was a way of her promoting her musical career while throwing a person who probably had some issues under the bus. I'm assuming he was around her age at the time, 19 or 20ish, or it would have been notable. I believe this is an important point as to where he was regarding maturity levels. I'm sooo glad she giggled about how much of a bitch she was to him... There seems to be no empathy or sympathy from her when looking back on their relationship. Other episodes I have found to be "not my thing" but this one really pisses me off. Don't know how I feel about this podcast moving forward. I am glad I found many of you beautiful freaks on this forum though.

And, as far as thought crime is concerned, listen to the NPR Talk of the Nation segment on the "Cannibal Cop" case. Seems a dangerous precedent has been set. I think we are pretty much fucked.