Episode 187 Susanna Lee

[spoink]

I'm right in the middle of this podcast, and it's an interesting one. I can't quite say I like it.

1. "irrationalpersist" nailed it. I listen to the podcast on my commute, and I exclaimed in my car, "that's the *point*, Paul!" when he complained that the stripper doesn't open up to him emotionally as well. How does he this transaction should work? I plop over a few hundred dollars and... you're my FRIEND for an hour? Yeah, no it doesn't work that way.

But I think I get what Paul was saying - he was expressing the frustrated feeling you get at a strip club when you realize that the intimacy isn't real. But seriously, how is this going to work? That's why strip clubs are seedy wastes of time. I've heard lots of guys joke about being more frustrated coming out of the strip club than they felt going in. That's why they're not our best accomplishment as a civilization. That's why they stigmatize men, too. And I *think* Paul gets that, but in the interview, his words didn't come out right and it seemed like he really didn't get it.

I think the deeper discussion is the degree to which male clients are victims of the sex trade themselves. They go in thinking they want shallow sexual stimulation when what they really want is either intimacy or real sexual connection. Either way the result is an empty and unsatisfying experience, right? What Paul said was a variant on that. I do think it says something about the state of men in our society that when Paul tries to articulate it and he fumbles a bit, it comes across really, well, bad. We're not so quick to forgive that one, are we? What's up with that? Why can't we acknowledge that strip clubs really do a number on guys, and that guys are pretty damn confused sexually too, and when Paul tries to point that out, it comes off like sounding absolutely ridiculous because to some degree he's still in the thick of it.

2. As much as I try, I don't like the guest. She struck me as very defensive, very full of pain. Her cynicism is very thick. The way she wrote off other people as "rotten to the core", the way she described her peers in school as "evil, evil children" and the way she rejected her father's expression of pride in her as insincere and therefore unworthy was all very off putting. I thought Paul recovered masterfully from the seedy discussion about the strippers when he pointed out that she had a lot of walls. He tap tap tapped on one of them and the shell cracked and she came right out with her issues with her father. I thought that was an absolutely compelling few minutes of radio. But she came right back to a place of cynical rejection of him. Maybe dad's struggling too. Maybe dad blames himself for her problems. Maybe she had a real opportunity to connect with dad when he offered that he was proud of her. Yeah, maybe it was a little awkward, maybe it sounded a little insincere, maybe there was shame on his part wrapped up in it too... But she came across to me as harsh. She's in a real interesting spot. You can tell she wants to open up and be vulnerable, but she runs back to cynicism a little too quickly. She's trying to be self-aware, but she has a lot of glaring blind spots (hint: when she gets cynical, that's a blind spot).

It makes for a very frustrating listen, and it makes it hard for me to like her.

[rivergirl]

I had some of the same reactions as irrationalpersist and ghughes1980. I don't want to feel this way because the podcast has meant so much to me, and I'm so grateful to Paul for that, but this episode left me feeling heartsick, and now I can't help but remember other instances over the past 6 months or so where I've had similar uneasy feelings. The problem I'm having isn't about Susanna (I would have liked to hear about more aspects of her life if the interview had gone differently). It isn't about the specific subject matter either. I listen to the Savage Love podcast every week, and while I don't always agree with Dan Savage, I also don't feel unsafe or disturbed listening to his podcast, even when the subject is sex work and the discussion is graphic. When I was listening to the Susanna Lee episode and Paul was talking (again) about his sexual needs and fantasies, and about wanting to punch men who felt differently, I actually felt my face get hot & my stomach drop. It was like I suddenly felt that Susanna wasn't safe with Paul (emotionally) and that I wasn't safe listening to the podcast. I felt similarly weirded out a few months ago when I was listening to an episode where Paul read the "most powerful sexual fantasies" part of a young woman's survey and then said that he had read it just because he thought it was "hot". It felt like a violation of that young woman to me, since that's not what the surveys are for, at least not what I thought they were for. I think there's a power difference between Paul as host of the podcast and his guests & listeners that he isn't quite aware of, and it's important not to exploit that.

[spoink]

Rivergirl, I think Paul's intention is to have a safe environment for guests and listeners, but at the same time he says right up front that it's a waiting room and not a doctor's office. He's another guy in the waiting room. Another guy with problems, issues, etc. who just likes to talk about them. Yes, there's a power dynamic as it's his show. But he imbues himself into every show and he struggles with issues around sex as many people do. I'm not sure he should stop doing that.

[ghughes1980]

The thing to do then would be to stop recording, apologize for crossing the boundary, regroup and then talk about something else. Rather than hitting a nerve and mining it until the person breaks down and cries. There needs to be ethics here. If this where a meeting at AA, NA, or a mental health support group there would be someone there to say this is not appropriate, send both parties to different areas and talk to them individually about what just happened. Calm both people down and re-establish boundaries before letting them interact again.

[neufena]

FINALLY someone who understands that children (and people in general) are EVIL beings who pray on anyone who's different and shows vulnerabilities.

It's rare I find someone who really get how horrid the world is, was nice to have someone on the show to relate to.

[spoink]

Just finished listening to this one. Still don't like the guest.

I'm not sure which image struck me as the most telling. The fact that she saw one of her "clients" crying in his truck, and just assumed that this was a good thing, or the whole thing about how she got into sex work after heisting big box stores for a while.

[neufena]

I really liked her, I really connected with her. I totally get that it she wants to achieve something in her life to make her a decent human. Paul and some of his guests often forget that they are successful comedians/entertainers and it's not as easy for us 'normal' people who have never achieved anything in life and have nothing to be proud of. I'm "only" 35 but already feel like the 59 year old stripper she mentioned, desperately trying to big up anything that could be considered an achievement while knowing deep inside I have done nothing.

For the first time ever the tagline 'you are not alone' actually rang true.

[spoink]

I'm happy you related with her.

I feel like there's a difference between "normal people" who haven't accomplished what they want to in life, and this guest. The episode focused so much on her sex work under sort of the assumption that we all agree that it's wrongfully criminalized, and then she just sort of throws in there that she worked her way into the profession by being an actual criminal.

[osailor]

I hate to say it but I really did not like or connect with this guest either. She seemed to think it was super cool that she hooked up with a guy that stole scrapbooking supplies and sold them on eBay.

[motormom]

I know that this episode brings up a lot of emotions for people and truth is, I have my own opinions about their discussion.

But what really struck me strongly right from the beginning is how intelligent Susanna Lee is. If Paul asked a question, she thought about it and didn't readily agree. She stated her opinion and was so smart about it.

That was inspiring to me.