Second Dr. Zucker episode

[Son & Air]

I'm listening to it now and felt the need to point out what seems to be a flaw in her logic.

Paul talks about how sometimes he feels like a little crybaby pussy for airing his problems with his mother. When there are people out there who have been actually sexually abused by a mother or father (and I'm one of them). Dr. Zucker's response is to ask, basically, if your child came home from school unhappy because other kids teased or bullied them, would your response just be that they needed to "man up?"

But there's a difference, though, I think. A child who has been teased or bullied has every right to their own experience of their own trauma, just as Paul has to his. But there's a girl out there whose boyfriend has literally broken her arm, and she doesn't know who or how to tell. How do you think she feels listening to a girlfriend cry because the most popular boy in school looked right through her?

FWIW, I do not think that Paul is a crybaby--his experience was different than my experience, and what he's going through is different from what I'm going through.

[cyanidebreathmint]

I didn't hear it that way. I heard it more like, "if your son or daughter told you this exact story, would you call them a crybaby pussy?" Paraphrasing, of course. Basically, she wanted him to be more objective about the events.

I think a girl who was beaten by a boyfriend, not knowing who to tell or how to tell it, hearing a friend complain about events in their life would (and this could be a very very slow process) show the girl that she has a right to her emotions, too. "After all, if Ally is crying because a boy ignored her, I guess I have the right to be very upset at what was done to me." Watching other people handle there emotions is my number one teacher for how to handle mine since I wasn't really taught that. Not to say I don't get resentful and jealous of others and the ease with which they express themselves, and even the types of problems they have, because I most certainly do.

I don't think Paul is a crybaby.

This is not constructive at all, but I'm just wondering if maybe you have a sort of knee jerk reaction to Dr. Zucker. I think I do. I have a slight distaste for her that I can't really support with anything except for that she came across as kinda rich and entitled to me. Heh. Unfortunately, I can't really hate on her since most of what she says makes sense.

[remarks]

There is something I don't like about Dr. Zucker also. It's strange because I think her two episodes are some of my favorites, but that has more to do with Paul and the topics that came up. That "mmmmm" noise she makes after Paul tells her something personal almost sounds sexual to me...like she's getting off on his problems.

On another note, I could really relate to Paul's story about the CD thief in his home. I'm still at the point where I would rather rage in my head about someone for years than confront them about what they did...something as little as stealing CDs.

[flibbertyjib]

I like Dr. Zucker enough for all of us.

[BCZF]

Hey Paul, perhaps a Dr Zucker ep every month or every two months? Perhaps emails? I know her time is valuable, but if she could maybe plant the seed to get people to seek treatment, I think 60/90 min every two months would be very valuable..

John

[jenloiacono]

I agree. An episode with Dr. Zucker every couple months would be very valuable, i think. I know i've gotten a lot out of both episodes with her so far.

Jennifer

[The Sleeper]

How come there is a forum for episodes and also one for podcast guests? Those two things seem to overlap.

Anyhow

I can't believe that is what Dr. Zucker looks like. She looks like the an indie rock goddess. She is fucking gorgeous and if I was in Paul's position I would have a hard time sharing my secrets with her.

I think her feedback to Paul has been spot on and really helpful except for one of the things she said in this episode. I had trouble with her response to Paul's desire to explain to his mother why he didn't help her move. Dr. Zucker uses the thief analogy which doesn't seem helpful to me. That is a very black and white situation; a thief obviously does not deserve to be reasoned with, but didn't they just discuss the fact that Paul's mother falls into the grey area? She is neither good nor bad. I get that Paul should realize that he is opening himself up to the possibility of more hurt, but doesn't his mother also deserve an explanation? My feelings might be coming from how I deal with people who have hurt me, which is probably to just keep opening my heart to them and getting hurt again so I don't know if I trust my take on this issue.

Paul, I really like hearing your story. It helps me understand why you created this podcast in the first place and I'm sure it helps a lot of listeners who may have similar issues. Thank you so much for all you do. Your concern for your listeners is so genuine and touching.

[Son & Air]

I think a girl who was beaten by a boyfriend, not knowing who to tell or how to tell it, hearing a friend complain about events in their life would (and this could be a very very slow process) show the girl that she has a right to her emotions, too.

Allowing for the fact that my "beaten woman/sexual abuse victim" metaphor may not have been that well thought out, I still think that a resentful, jealous reaction is at least as likely if not more so. The resentfulness isn't just because of what may seem to one person smaller problems than their own, it's also that the other person has what seems like a pretty fine life, and access to resources both professional (therapy) and personal (friends) that the first person may not have.

This is not constructive at all, but I'm just wondering if maybe you have a sort of knee jerk reaction to Dr. Zucker. I think I do. I have a slight distaste for her that I can't really support with anything except for that she came across as kinda rich and entitled to me. Heh. Unfortunately, I can't really hate on her since most of what she says makes sense.

I don't think that's the case--and I actually liked the first Dr. Zucker episode fine. Unfortunately, if I have a knee-jerk reaction to anything it's probably Paul's story. As I've said here and elsewhere on this forum, I am a victim of actual, honest-to-god, no-question-about-it sexual abuse from my mother.

It is extremely frustrating for me to hear about his problems with his, even if, logically, I know that he has a right to his own complaints.

[jeesau]

Just finished listening to this podcast. Wow, it had my name written all over it (well, not literally, of course.)

* The advice about "Worry less" -- oh the time I've wasted worrying! I could have learned at least another language in the time I've spent.
* "Freezing" (not being able to respond when someone is crossing my boundaries, particularly when I was molested as a teenager)
* Standing up for yourself -- I just don't think I have a right to say anything.

There's more, but I won't go on because the main reason I wanted to post was the email to Paul from a fellow listener who told him he should apologize to his mother and that he is making something out of nothing. I can't imagine why someone would send him that, other than he's projecting his own shit on Paul. Even if he truly felt that way, why share it?

Anyway, during the discussion that followed with Dr. Zucker about how one defines "sexual abuse," I was waiting to hear one word: intention. It was implied, but I thought it was important to say. It seemed to me that the mom of the 7-month-old boy would be fine to say her son is "handsome" assuming she doesn't have a bad intention. (Isn't sexualizing.) It's my feeling that Paul felt icky and uncomfortable when his mother said and did things because he was feeling her intention. Sure, the actions crossed the line just by their definition, but those "grey area" words are tough to define. I think of times I've been complimented on my appearance and it felt nice, and other times a person could say the same words, but I feel like running home for a Silkwood shower. It's the intention I was sensing. The reptile part of our brains tells us when something's not right. (Now, if only my brain was wired with "fight or flight" and not "freeze"!)

What do other's think? Are you reading this and thinking "no shit"? I guess I brought it up because we should trust our guts more. I'd better hit submit before I erase this whole thing...

[RyanN]

Somebody would send him that because that's what people do is share things with each other, you and I might even happen to disagree with their perspective but that does not mean we should shut them out of the conversation. Maybe they are right and we are in the wrong (I don't think this is true, but regardless).

I agree that taking intention in to account definitely matters, but it is not at all the only issue. You can certainly sexually molest or otherwise hurt somebody without intending to do so. For instance, you can suggest that somebody keep their beliefs to themselves only because you disagree with them. You might even be trying to protect somebody else from their "harmful" opinions, but either way your intentions hurt the person you are shutting down.


I actually had a lot of problems with Dr. Zucker on this episode by contrast with the really great first episode they had shared together. It was a while ago that I listened to it, but I think it was primarily that it was distressing to hear his personal problems being so drastically pathologized publicly by someone who while a therapist was in no position to be doing such a thing, let alone encouraging this be done on a widely listened to podcast. Paul is suffering from problems because he was born in to a shit family and lives in an apathetic political state, not simply because he is biologically mentally ill.