Judged. Not meeting standards of the lazy.

[oak]

Hello!

I am applying for jobs, and seeking dates for the weekend.

They are remarkably similar:

Most places I apply for, or women I invite out, (60%, say) are polite, and civil. Hooray for them!

Most of the rest (30%) are wonderfully kind. They are affirming. Super hooray for them!

While most (but not all, as I've found out) potential employers are at least civil, I am wearied by women who are rude to me when I kindly invite them out on dates. I speak below only to them, and with several big big caveats:

First, as a straight dude, I recognize my heteronormativity. Also, when people have asked me out it can be very very creepy! (However, I only invite women out who give me signals, who demonstrate interest). Lastly, I celebrate their free will and agency to decline a date.

Such are my caveats.


Example of a weary-ing, dispiriting, emotionally exhausting discussion:

I've gotten the idea to host this summer a "Zombie Bowlpacoylpse".

I will merge "cosmic bowling", zombie makeup, and pinterest-worthy zombie cupcakes.

So yesterday I politely invite a young woman I've known for sometime.

She looks at me like I had said something deeply offensive. Without exageration, as if I had proposed to masterbate on something sacred to her.

She didn't even respond to me, leaving an awful, heavy silence of pure awkwardness.

Example 2:
Also yesterday I saw an attractive woman I've noticed and chatted up before.

First up, the actual conversation.

Me: Would you like to get sushi this Thursday evening?

Her: Ugh! I hate fish! Hate it!

What I imagine she heard (seperate from what I said), Translated from her point of view, so far as I can guess:

Me: Fish! Fishy fish!

Her: I do not care for fish!

Notice she bears no ill will, but perhaps she does not see the ostensbile situation from my point of view, as translated, in my implied communication:

Me: I want to spend time with you to get to know you better. Of all the people out there, I have noticed you, worked out a plan, earned money, and found the courage to invite you out. Sushi is merely a socially convenient excuse for a first date.

Her: By looking at the surface meaning, I miss the subtle (but sorta obvious) meaning: you are seeking a date. I will instead stay on the surface, and talk about fish.


Rant, offered kindly, from my heart, from one guy, about asking women out:

One thing I wish women could understand is how much courage it takes for me to ask out a woman.

Here is an analogy:

Let's say it takes me $100 worth of courage to ask out a woman. Since I was born with $0, I had to earn a few dollars here, a few cents there, growing up. I wasn't born with it.

So, when I invite out a woman, I am essentially saying: "Here is $100 worth of my dignity! I lay it out before you, not knowing if you are a worthy person or not. A worthy person will respect my dignity, even if she says no. An unworthy person will laugh or dismiss my sincere offer. The only way I can find out is to ask, hence this risking of my $100 worth of dignity."

Yet, like many truths in this game of love, there is a flip side, naturally enough based on karma:

If it takes me $100 worth of dignity to ask out a woman, then it stands that a metaphorical interest rate makes it very inexpensive to ask out one, or two, or twenty women. I am not spending the emotional principal (my dignity and self worth), but spending my emotional interest, that is the by product of making myself someone who has the courage to invite a woman out.

So, five minutes later after the first example (the girl who hate-stared me and said nothing), I invited out another woman: same exact offer, same exact me:

Me: Come to my zombie bowlpocalypse!

Her: You had me at "zombie"!

She was full of joy!

What it takes for me to invite any woman is initiative, courage, and plan making. What it takes to be lazy, and try to demean me....takes nothing.

But since the rude-decliners offer nothing, they can take take nothing. They can take nothing from inside me.

So it stands that if I have the courage and initiative to invite out one woman, I have the same qualities to invite out another woman five minutes later.


The takeaway from my rambling rant?

I wish women could experience what I feel when inviting them out.

I am built up by the respect and honor of a kind rejection.

I wish women could be in my body for one day a year!

I am improving, trying to be the kind of man who can articulate my good qualities so that a woman can make an informed choice of if she wants to date me.

"No" is okay to hear. All I ask is for a little kindness.

[manuel_moe_g]

Hello oak, read your post, and I honor your pain. You are a good guy and you don't deserve to feel like that.

Asking a woman out is a gift to her, if you think about it, because it is a boost to her ego.

One way to think about it is that you might want to build up a reserve of generosity in your heart just before ask a lady out, so her ungraceful rejection is less painful to you because you gave her a gift, and you expected nothing in return because you built up a reserve of generosity in your heart before doing it.

You are the expert on your own situation, and you are a good guy and you don't deserve to feel those bad feelings you described in your post. All the best, take care, cheers!

[oak]

Much forum love, manuel.

Your post is the Chipotle burrito, the forgotten $20 bill in the pocket, the just-long-enough green light, of my day: I am a little happier, a little more connected because you cared enough to take some time out of your day to post.

I am grateful for your post, and to have a forum where I can be honest. Gratitude.

Even about the painful stuff.

[SmartCookie]

oak,

This was an interesting post for me to read from my perspective — I'm a woman. I've been in the same relationship since I was 21, so it's been a while. I think the only person who's ever asked me out on a date was when I was in high school.

The tone of our writing belies the measured amount of thought you seem to have given to how you are approaching it, and that is good. You're not necessarily escaping unscathed from the rejections, but nor are you dwelling on them or deriving your self-esteem from your results, and that is to be commended.

As a woman, I have a lot of trouble with some of the broad-brushed generalizations in your post:

One thing I wish women could understand is how much courage it takes for me to ask out a woman.
... I wish women could experience what I feel when inviting them out. ... I wish women could be in my body for one day a year!

You had called it a rant, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this is mostly an expression of frustration and not something real you would direct towards any real people.

I won't go on at length about this, but I'll simply offer this for your consideration: if you feel dehumanized because these people you have been asking out cannot bring themselves to give you clarity, certainty and respect by being unambiguous in rejecting you, what kinds of experiences may have socialized the people you have propositioned, to think that being ambiguous is better than being clear?

In asking this, I'm not expecting to single-handedly overturn, or asking for you to buck the trend against, these very deeply-embedded cultural patterns around how we express what we want and how we respond to such expressions. Just wondering the extent to which keeping an open mind might help you shake off the rejection and move on.

SC

[manuel_moe_g]

Rejection is hard, and at this moment in history in the west, being an ethical & effective male requires a man to be self-actualized at an early age, or fortunate at an early age.

For me, a male, growing up in the 1970's left me unprepared. As a young man, it felt like I radiated "creepiness" and I was not self-actualized to navigate my way to becoming an effective ethical young male. (In reality, I had a lot of strange ideas about relationships as a young man - I had this strange idea that a manic pixie dream girl was going to save me!)

My breakdown at the age of 25 _forced_ me to become self-actualized quickly, and it was painful.

What I desired from the "manic pixie dream girl" I was unwilling to give to another - I was too selfish and too self-absorbed to give love and understanding and support to somebody who wasn't obviously desirable from the outside. Bleh to me.

I have a mature and rewarding relationship with my wife, and both my wife and my daughter are substantial people, to my delight. At least, that is how _I_ read the situation - many times I am not a delightful fellow to be around!

Being self-actualized has many advantages, and _now_ I wouldn't trade it for relationships coming easily to me - but that is definitely _not_ how I felt at the time as a young man! Back then, it was _so_ frustrating and _so_ humiliating!

Being self-actualized means working on self-discipline and working on an internal-locus-of-control.

But I am also working on my own compassion. I have to remember that people are the experts on their own situation, and people have a right to their feelings. I don't want to trample on people with my autobiography.

All the best, cheers!

[oak]

Manic Pixie Dreamgirls?

You know, manuel, about MPDGs?

You and I might be long lost brothers. If you also like turn based strategy games, we are twins separated at birth.

Even if we aren't biologically related, manuel, I feel a brotherly kinship with you.

Thanks for posting, my friend. It is really interesting to be a man, a guy. Self actualization and self discipline have been important goals and visions as I have dated more. How painful the growth is! But it is a good pain.

And ah yes, the delicious balance, the invigorating dance, the interconnectedness of being an ethical man, and being an effective man. I find that living out that balance is a great joy.

Ready for some cheesiness?

Last night they had that movie "The Natural" on. I never understood sports until I realized that my love of women, and the pursuit thereof, is like the love of the game that Roy Hobbs has for baseball.

If I live to be 1000, I no joke would keep learning new things about my one great passion in life: women.

@SC:

Hello and thank you for posting on my thread here. I am pleased that you cared enough about what I wrote for you to craft a thoughtful reply.

I turned your insight over in my head for much of the morning. Thank you for expanding my horizons, and giving me a fresh perspective on a topic that I am passionate about.

[oak]

Update!

On Friday a woman gave me the signals to invite her out, so I am getting drinks with her as friends, since I don't want to lead her on.

Still, I am excited about exploring someone new, even if it probably won't go anywhere.

People often talk about "putting themselves out there". I have found that in practice that is a little messy, not always popular, but is worth it.

I'll post here if any summer romances spark. Thanks for listening.