Dating, trust, self-esteem, etc.

[Jules_rules]

So, I've been going through a severe depressive episode for over 6 months now. I just completed Intensive Outpatient Therapy and my meds are helping. But I'm still fairly fragile and I've been on leave from work since late January. I still have a lot of work to do. But lately, with all the work I've been doing to get out and be more social, one thing stands out. I'm lonely. I haven't been in a relationship of any kind in almost three years now. I've struggled with my weight most of my life, but during this depressive period, I put on A LOT of weight, so my body image is pretty shot. Add to that the fact that because of my weight/body issues, I have a hard time believing any decent guy would be interested in me, with the exception of maybe a f*@k-buddy type thing, where we don't really socialize, because that was the norm for me for a long time.

In the last few weeks, I've been trying some online dating sites. I'm trying in incremental ways to get out there. But I confessed to my therapy group just last week, as I burst into tears, that I can't believe any guy would legitimately find me attractive.

Cut to today, and I stopped at the store on my way to the fitness center. I can generally feel moderately good about myself if I'm dressed nice and made up and all that, but given where I was headed, I was in workout wear that's really a bit too small for me, with my hair in a sloppy ponytail, no makeup and a brand new zit that I can see in my peripheral vision. A guy comes up to me and asks me a couple of odd questions about the location of other stores nearby and if I live close. I answer him and then he tells me that he was just trying to make conversation because he thought I was pretty and he'd like to get my number if that's ok. I was so taken aback that I'm pretty sure I wasn't super warm or receptive. I think it was just my defense mechanisms kicking in. The guy was very normal looking, but my brain actually thought, maybe he's a serial killer. I actually thought that explained why a nice normal looking guy would be picking me up in the store. I did end up giving him my name and my number and I hope my face didn't seem too "deer in headlights" even though that's how I felt. I hope I gave him the right number (between my ADD and anxiety, in situations like that, I hardly know what's coming out of my mouth in the moment), even though I'm not confident about this situation at all. He hasn't called yet.

I don't know if I should trust him and give him a chance if he actually does call. Any advice?

[oak]

Hey Jules.

Human to human, I wish you well, and much healing. I admire you for being willing to face your depression. High five!

As a straight dude, with high standards who dates alot, let me offer you the following encouragement, which you are welcome to take or leave.

First up, if you have any doubts about the guy don't go out with him. Trust your gut. For me, at least, my conscience has never led me astray. Trust yourself.

If your conscience is okay with meeting him, he should have a first date where you meet in public. (That is how I do first dates, coffee shops etc.)

Of course, if you do end up turning him down for a date (again, even for good reasons), then you can't be upset if you see him with another girl in a week or two. Such is the ruthless game: men have choices.

I recognized what this fellow did, and there is even a name for it.

It is called daygame. He used a situational opener, hooked the convo, and then number closed you. While I don't know his situation, it sounds like he used the same "game" I do, which is Neil Strauss' version of pickup*.

If I have not offended you (and I hope I haven't) to the point of not reading, let me offer you this encouragement about your weight.

Many times I have had women complain to me that they are "short" or "fat". One woman I know is 4 feet 10, but taller than many six feet women.

Last week, a woman described herself as a "big girl", which shocked me. First up, at 21 she is more "woman" than many 40 year olds I know. Second, she was not big, she is perfect.

I even described my preference for Joan over Betty. Betty Draper is certainly pretty, but Joan oh my goodness. Yum!

So you are going to the gym in workout wear and a ponytail? Do you know how attractive that is?

As someone who is 5-10, 200 pounds with a few facial scars myself, why would I judge your weight or a zit?

While I won't speak for your new friend, consider this:

If he is confident enough to chat you up and ask for your number, surely he is able to do that with other women, correct?

If so, there are always many women to choose from to approach and ask out.

Therefore he (and I) have the luxury of introducing ourselves to only the women we are interested in.

This fellow, bless his heart, decided to take a chance and talk with you because he wanted to. He chose you.

Does that mean to trust him on a date? Nope. But trust a man's attention. We have any number of women to talk to, and we only talk to those we want to.

You're attracting attention. Good for you.



*Whether PU is moral, immoral, or amoral is a topic for another thread. Whether anyone likes it or not, it is a reality, and it is not going away.

[Jules_rules]

First of all, thanks so much for the response. I really needed to hear something that wasn't just so much sunshine up my skirt. Unfortunately, a lot of people in my life are trying a little too hard to be nice to me and encourage me but I don't feel like they give me honest feedback, so I appreciate yours.

Seriously had never heard of this Daygame thing. I'm so glad you shed some light on it. I really makes me feel better about the whole thing. He was so complimentary in the convo and later in the texts he has since sent that it freaked me out a little. Clearly I'm just not used to this, which is pretty sad, but that's just how it is.

I've done the online dating thing enough to know about the first date safety rules. I'll trust my gut and see what happens.

Thanks again for the in depth response.

Incidentally, that was the 2nd time I got picked up in that same grocery store, the previous time being 20 years ago. I've got quite the streak going.

[oak]

Jules, you sound like a real sweatheart. You are very welcome.

And thanks for not judging daygame. Alot of it is just keeping us guys out of our own way.

So you are doing good: you are feeling better, you are getting out of the house, and you are getting guys' attention.

Like I said in the reply: if you feel nervous about the guy, then don't meet him.

However, if he seems non-creepy then feel free to meet him. Of course, don't have him pick you up for the first date, but rather meet him in a crowded public place like a coffee shop or popular bar. Perhaps even have a friend unobtrusively observe.

Either way, date or no date, you'll be fine.

If he is texting, I'd bet dollars to dimes he'll ask you on a first date. My guess (and it is just a guess) is that if you guys met over the weekend, he send a few text over the next day or two. He might suggest a drink after work on about Wednesday or Thursday. Maybe a coffee on Saturday afternoon. He probably won't try for a traditional Friday or Saturday night dinner and a movie, since those can be high pressure for everybody on a first date.

If he is a cool, smooth guy he might invite you to a gallery opening or art show. If he is cool enough to chat you up, he is likely cool enough to know the cool venues around town. Or he might well go for the low key, comfortable coffee or drink.

Here is the other thing!: If he compliments you, it is okay to compliment him. Women complimenting men is an under-utilized tactic! Personally I looove being complimented by women.

One piece of tough love/reality: don't delay too long or ignore texts. Don't reply right away, but it is dangerous to ignore texts. Remember, we have any number of numbers in our phones, and it is common for us to text the next girl if the first girl can't be bothered to get back to us. An hour or two is a good time to wait to reply, at least at first.

One last suggestion: now that you are attracting guys' attention, be a little bold and signal your interest to a guy you notice. The classic signal is flipping your hair over one ear. If guys are perceptive they will see that loud and clear.

If the hairflip is Flirting 101, then Flirting 201 is laughing a little too loud at something semi-funny he says. Flirting 301 is to laugh, lean in, and gently touch his bicep.

But hey, progress not perfection. Next time you're out catch the guy's eye, look for just a moment too long, then do a hairflip.

You're on your way, Jules.

Also, now you have to keep me/us posted as to his progress. Good luck. Now go throw some hairflips around town.

[Jules_rules]

I forgot about my original post and to offer an update (not that I'm assuming anyone really wanted one).

The guy did ultimately turn out to be a creeper, but not before we had a public meeting. He cut the meeting short due to having a paper to finish writing, which I found to be a plus, as he is working on his masters degree and I have respect for that. There wasn't a lot of chemistry but given the brevity of the meeting, I was willing to move forward to potentially have a real date. That was until we exchanged texts later that night.

First he thanked me for meeting him and told me I was very attractive. I thanked him.
Then he asked if my hair was naturally red and told me he was glad I wasn't fake skinny. I wasn't 100% sure what he meant by that 2nd thing but I took it as a compliment. I thanked him but said something along the lines of I want to be more fit and healthy but I will never be skinny. I joked that I come from "peasant stock" and we're just not built that way. I didn't respond to the natural red-head thing. I am, but the context of him asking just felt a little skeezy, like he was asking if "the carpet matches the drapes."
To that he responded well your hot. so what is your bra size? <sad trombone> This is where all my fears come into play, as I'm imagining him texting with all his bros standing behind him laughing, waiting to see if I'll send a pic of my boobs.
I responded that his question was a bit over the line. Should I have been harder on him or did I overreact?
He texted back Sorry, and that's the last I've heard from him. I started thinking maybe I should have accepted his apology and kept the conversation going, but realized this is the reaction of the girl who hasn't had a date in so long, she's looking for a reason to excuse his behavior.

I'm proud of myself that I was just willing to let this go and move on.

Sidenote: as I was waiting for him to arrive at the Starbucks, I got a drink and went to a table. I'm not really a Starbucks person, but this one is located inside a huge REI (sporting goods) store, the flagship store, with climbing wall and equipment rentals, etc. It's adjacent to a major downtown park, with kayakers on the Platte and a huge convergence of biking/walking trails. Very outdoorsy, just to give an idea of this place and overall, the clientele who comes in. While I was waiting, no fewer than three guys came in who, to be honest, I found far more intriguing (yes, judging some books by their covers) than the guy I was waiting for. I feel like I made eye contact with a couple of them and wished I hadn't been waiting to meet someone else. So, even thought it's such a cliche, I may just hang out in this Starbucks a bit more often.

[oak]

Heyyy! Thanks for posting. I was wondering the other day, while I was hiking, how this turned out.

Usually I use "I" statements, but now I speak for all men! Or at least "gentlemen". Simply put, he played this wrong, and you deserve better.

Ummmm.... "cutting a date short" is poor form for a number of reasons, IMHO.

First, the gentleman should be above all trying to make others comfortable. One should be nonplussed about the time.

Second, the fellow should be easy, calm control of things. "Running out of time" is like "running out of money"; if he can't control his own time, how can he provide cool experiences for others? Weird!

Ummm....one's hair color is one's own business. Especially on a first date. Not how I would play it. I am far from perfect physically, so no way I am going to ask about someone else's looks. Compliment? Sure. Question? No.

Oh no! The bra size question! Agreed: wah wah wah. The game of love is delicate dance, a delicious game of cat and mouse. Eventually the bra size will become clear to everyone, but let's leave something to the imagination. At least at first. Again, poorly played.

Well, as far as accepting his apology, that is up to you. I would never ask such a question after a first date. I prefer to give the girl the gift of missing me.

Oh can I so identify with you?

I went on a date yesterday with a lovely woman, and suddenly every beautiful woman in revealing clothes was bumping into me! I tried not to look! I sooo identify with your noticing other attractive people while on a date.

It sounds like all in all it was sort of an adventure. I wish he had been a little smoother, and left a little more to the imagination.