YOU ARE NOT ALONE - A companion online community discussion board for The Mental Illness Happy Hour podcast with Paul Gilmartin

Welcome to a randomly updated series of posts I will be doing that will be entitled “Thane’s Thoughts and Feelings towards Women and Relationships,” which is about… well, I think the title is self-explanatory. I’ve been fleshing out a number of pieces that pertain to this topic, and while some can just flow right out of my mind and onto the screen with relative ease, there are others that I just seem to get stuck on or end up bitching on an endless loop, so bear with me. I figured since this is the first post of many to come, I would start off seemingly simple.


I hate chemistry. I’m not someone that denies science, but I’m just not someone that has a knack for thinking scientifically (and for that, I thank those that do for being able to figure out the science for me). But I’m not talking about that kind of chemistry- I’m talking about the social kind of chemistry… which I also seem to hate. For the most part, I would label myself socially savvy- with some off-days here and there and sometimes just meeting people that I just can’t communicate with, of course- but I’ve never really had a good grip on the whole idea of “chemistry,” in a social sense. I get it when they talk about it in movies and TV and it’s nice to have an example to observe- albeit being scripted. With me having those examples, I don’t think I’ve ever had that with anyone I’ve known. It may be dumb to compare my life and the people I knew to characters on a TV show- no, wait; it’s *absolutely* dumb to do that. So then I tried googling the whole idea of chemistry, which makes me feel lame as shit. And even after swallowing my pride and resorting to that, I kinda got the same grandiose, TV-show definition of chemistry. So neither of those tactics are really going to help me, but maybe if I paid attention to when people discuss/display good chemistry in real life (the kind of real life with trees and sunlight and suffering and tacos made of Doritos), I could get a grip on the idea of chemistry.


I can recall listening to friends talk about couples in school, saying how “those two looked good together.” I think this is a simple and fairly shallow concept to grasp, and it’s also relative. Is there really a couple out there that 7 billion people can unanimously agree on if that couple looks good together? Well, perhaps this is a functioning factor in the idea of chemistry, but there’s gotta be more to it than that. But for the moment, I’ll focus on this part and state that no one has ever said that about me with anybody. And I know in my rational mind that this is such a stupid, subjective, little aspect of being with someone, but I can’t help but feel hurt that no one has ever said “Hey Thane, you and that girl look really nice together.” It’s so dumb to place your feelings upon a comment that some person makes about the way you look with somebody else, but the fact that I’ve never known that being said about me with anybody makes me feel like I don’t look good with anybody. Is it my fault? Is it the world’s fault? (Side note: I like to believe the latter). But either way, it makes me feel alone- incapable of being with anybody because I don’t “look good” with anybody, and therefore incapable of being loved and cared for by anybody. I do remember a time where I was feeling down about this thing in particular years ago, and my friend (who was my friend’s girlfriend) told me “well, I think when we’re hanging out together, people think we’re a couple,” but how am I supposed to take that? She was my friend’s girlfriend, so I know what she’s saying is just a ploy to cheer me up, and no matter how many people may have thought that, she was with somebody else, not me.


I can recall Paul and Annabelle talking on MIHH #09 about how they had good chemistry even though they fought all the time. Now this part interests me, because it goes against my intuition and how I work- how can two people that butt heads often have “good chemistry?” In my world, if I’m fighting with someone, I hate them. They are an enemy that is opposed to me in every substantial way, so if I fight with them, I’m out for blood, and my end goal is to destroy them. How on earth could I possibly have good chemistry with someone I want to destroy? From what I’ve heard from them, I’m aware that Paul and Annabelle really held some animosity towards each other back in the day, but they still had to be around each other for work. Usually, if I ever hold that amount of animosity towards someone, I either cut them out of my life, or I CUT THEM OUT OF MY LIFE (disclaimer: I have never murdered anyone with a knife, sword [any kind], machete, saw [any kind], razor, box-cutter, pizza-cutter, electronic bread-slicer, apple-slicer, lawnmower, or improvised bladed weapon), so maybe I’ve just never given the “good chemistry even though we fight like crazy” thing to really take effect. I don't know, I wish I could listen to Paul and Annabelle dissect their relationship on Dinner & a Movie some more, for the sake of my own personal perspective. But then again, even when Annabelle mentioned that her and Paul had good chemistry, she couldn't really put her finger on an explanation as to why that was, so maybe I'm not alone in my inability to understand chemistry.


What makes the most sense to me when it comes to examples of good chemistry is when I see my friends and their girlfriends, and they’re just on the same frequency. You know, when they just think in the same way, and they just seem to be in tune with each other in a sixth sense. And while I can point it out in the feeble, not-concise way I’m doing it here, I’ve certainly never experienced that myself. And it’s this part that really depresses me. I feel the same way here as I do when I reflect on the idea that no one’s ever said I look good with anybody; but while I said before how the whole “looking good with somebody” thing is particularly shallow, the idea that “you’ve never met anyone that has ever been on your frequency” is devastating to think about. Now I certainly wouldn’t say that finding someone on the same frequency as you is an easy thing to do- I’m sure we could all agree with that- but to know that there were people out there that had someone who just got them and accepted them and felt them in such a profound way while you're left alone… it just really hurts. And especially when your friends have that and you don’t. I really long to have that connection with someone, and if I could say for myself, I’ve never had that with anyone. PERHAPS I AM WRONG, but I think I would be able to know when there was somebody else who was on my frequency and just understood me in the way that I wished someone did. In the Paul F. Tompkins episode of MIHH, both he and Paul G. talk about how awesome it is to have someone that understands them, accepts them, and will stick with them even when they have episodes of depression, darkness, and all-around unpleasantness. And I yearn to have something like that. When I fall into one of those moments/days/episodes and I look through my phone, make my calls for help, and get no response from anyone, I clench my fist and just wish I could have one person that would always be there and that could understand what I was going through and would be there to help pull me out of it- or at the very least, sit in the pit with me and keep me some company. But you know what? I think- nay, know- it takes much more than good chemistry for something like this to happen, but I do think good chemistry is one of the things that needs to be present for something as beautiful as this to be achieved.

Well, shit, I guess I got more deep than I wanted to here, and it’s gonna seem cheaply wrapped up now to quickly reiterate my now-estranged thesis, but I just don’t think I’ve ever had good chemistry with anyone. I think back to all of the girls I’ve ever hung out with, and I can’t seem to be able to put the label of “good chemistry” between me and any of those people. And that makes me really mad. Okay, sure, I’ve met .000000006% of all of the girls that live in the world, but even so, how have I not met even just one person that can be labeled with assurance that we had good chemistry together? And I’m probably gonna start rambling in a circle now, so I’ll take my hands off the keyboard.

Hi Thane.

I'm actually a biochemist, but unfortunately that doesn't really qualify me to talk about the relationship kind of chemistry. I thought your post was very insightful, and I can relate to a lot of the frustrations that you express. I don't recall from your other posts exactly how old you are or where exactly you are on the journey of life, but here's the perspective from a long-married 40 year old guy who has a lot of stress in his marriage and thinks a lot about whether life would be better with different women besides the one he's married to.

To me, chemistry is about feeling like you belong. You don't have to work to be with the other person, you can just. be. yourself. You don't have to fit in, to live up to a set of particular expectations. Two people with chemistry "get" each other, are comfortable and relaxed with each other. It doesn't mean they always agree on everything or like the same things. It just means that they accept each other and can communicate with each other freely. That's where the "good chemistry and fight like crazy" comes in.

I think chemistry gets confused with "electricity", or the excitement (often hormonally driven, and by adrenal hormones as much as sex hormones) that comes from physical attraction, the thrill of the hunt/conquest, etc. I don't think true chemistry has to do with whether a couple "looks good" together. It's not about looks, and it's not about the fake behavior (trying to impress) that often characterizes the early stages of a dating relationship. People with chemistry move past that fake stage. I think the people who become good friends and then fall in love are the best examples of that kind of chemistry, because their connection has a foundation and a history that is more than just physical attraction.

it takes much more than good chemistry for something like this to happen, but I do think good chemistry is one of the things that needs to be present for something as beautiful as this to be achieved.

I agree. Good chemistry alone is not enough for a sustained monogamous romantic sexual relationship, but without good chemistry, it is probably hard to have one.

You've obviously thought about this a lot, and I look forward to future installments of your series. You're a good person, deserving of friendship and love. There are people out there of all sorts to love you back, and I know that it sucks when you can't find them when you need them, but the more that you can put yourself out there and be real and authentic and vulnerable, the better your chances at finding friendships as well as romantic partners with true chemistry will be. Best wishes and thanks for your post.

Thane thanks for posting.

A very interesting idea.

Speaking only for myself, creating chemistry between me and a woman is a miracle but not an accident.

By "creation" I mean it is a conscious, structured effort.

If and when I am careful about my grooming, am happy inside, and genuinely interested in others, then that is the environment where it is natural for me to develop chemistry with women.

At the risk of getting woo-woo, I do believe that an attractive man can create vibrations that are very attractive to women.

This attractiveness has nothing to do with money, looks, power, or any other surface feature. It has everything to do with, in my experience, how a man carries himself.

Hey weary,

I’m glad you perceive me as a good person- I credit that to the disclaimer I made about having never murdered anybody.

I enjoy your take on chemistry, and I also like how you separated the shallow part I referred to and labeled it as “electricity.” With that being said, I hate electricity- so fuck you, Benjamin Franklin/Nikola Tesla/God/Pikachu, or whoever invented electricity (just kidding, seriously I love electricity; if it wasn’t for electricity, I wouldn’t have been able to post this dumb little bit I’m doing right now). But for real, I don’t get excited with the hunt/conquest- probably because I’m winless, but also because it’s just not the way I work. Call it timidity or call it being a respectful gentleman (I like to go with the latter), but I don’t like to “hunt” when it comes to women because the term “hunt” is NOT CONSENSUAL. Do you think a deer is consenting to be shot in the head by a hunting rifle? The whole idea of chasing after a woman doesn’t sound right to me. I understand the whole premise of it, and I understand how big of a thing it is, but if a woman was running away from me (figuratively speaking) in order to get me to chase after them (figuratively speaking), I wouldn’t do that- I would perceive them running away from me (figuratively speaking) as “Oh hey, she doesn’t want to be around me” (literally speaking). You wanna know what’s exciting to me? When a woman shows me that she’s interested in me. When I am being me, and a woman is enjoying what I am being. Consensus is sexy, and I very much prefer to have a woman knock on the doors of my emotionally fortified castle and show me that she wants to come in because I feel safer in my kingdom (yeah, those narcissistic undertones you’re noticing are real, it’s not your imagination). But of course, I’ve been duped into thinking people were interested when they weren’t, so really nothing is safe.

I think the people who become good friends and then fall in love are the best examples of that kind of chemistry, because their connection has a foundation and a history

I agree, disagree, and am pained by this quote. I agree because I think it’s just common sense that two people who have been good friends for a while have good chemistry, because if they didn’t, they’d find a way to not be friends. I disagree with this because I have trouble with the idea of knowing someone for years and then having mutual romantic feelings sprout up years after we’ve first met; I feel as though if romantic feelings are to develop between two people, they should develop promptly. And I’m pained by this quote because it makes me dwell on the fact that I’ve never had any women as friends for a very long time for anything like that to develop. I would get more into these thoughts of mine, but honestly they’re topics I will expand on in future installments, so I hope you can be patient. I’ll do my best to remember to make a callback to what you’ve said.

I thank you for taking the time to read what I’m posting, I thank you for being interested in my future posts, and I thank you for being a biochemist and harnessing knowledge and serving society in a way that I never could. Though I would love it I could transform every person on earth into Thane, we would all die fairly quickly because we wouldn’t know how to manage nuclear power plants and water treatment plants.

ThaneRising wrote:You wanna know what’s exciting to me? When a woman shows me that she’s interested in me. When I am being me, and a woman is enjoying what I am being.

Agreed. The inverse of that is the really lousy feeling that comes when you think you're being taken for granted. But that's a topic for another discussion. I do agree with your dislike of the hunt/conquest metaphor. I don't like it and have never lived it anyway. I think maybe a more polished way to look at it is the excitement and uncertainty (does she like me? Is she flirting? Will she say yes?) rather than trying to "corner" or "outwit" your "prey."

I feel as though if romantic feelings are to develop between two people, they should develop promptly.

In some cases, the seeds of the feelings are there early, but for one reason or another, a relationship is inappropriate at that time. In other cases, there is chemistry from the get-go, but there is a particular event that occurs that causes one person to look at the other differently.

My therapist has told me (and other men in my group, all of which have some degree of struggles in their marriage/relationship) that I should make it a point to fall in love with as many women as I can. It sounds silly and he doesn't mean literally have a romantic/sexual relationship with many women - it's to be open and honest about who I am and my feelings and accept the same in other people, and to be a loving person and to make sure to let in the love that other people have to offer. It sounds very corny and hippie. But I think that can be a starting point for finding romantic fulfillment, or at least ending up with a lot of close friends, which is certainly better than nothing.

I think maybe a more polished way to look at it is the excitement and uncertainty (does she like me? Is she flirting? Will she say yes?) rather than trying to "corner" or "outwit" your "prey."

Yes, I think the vast majority of people enjoy these aspects, and I am not one of them. A lifetime (well, relatively short lifetime, but still a lifetime) of rejection and a track record of losses has conditioned me into hating the uncertainty, because each scenario I’ve been in so far has resulted in a negative conclusion. It’s also conditioned my thoughts into despising women. I feel like since there haven’t been any women that are “pro-Thane,” they’re all “anti-Thane,” and my “the whole world is against me” complex comes into play (if you remembered me talking about that from an earlier thread of mine). And this idea of mine that there’s this gender-wide vendetta against me which makes me match my feelings towards women with an underlying vitriol leads me to the next thing you said…

My therapist has told me (and other men in my group, all of which have some degree of struggles in their marriage/relationship) that I should make it a point to fall in love with as many women as I can. It sounds silly and he doesn’t mean literally have a romantic/sexual relationship with many women – it’s to be open and honest about who I am and my feelings and accept the same in other people, and to be a loving person and to make sure to let in the love that other people have to offer. It sounds very corny and hippie. But I think that can be a starting point for finding romantic fulfillment, or at least ending up with a lot of close friends, which is certainly better than nothing.

Jeez, “make it a point to fall in love with as many women as can…” I keep saying it, but it doesn’t sound like anything- just a bunch of noises I’m making with my mouth. And it doesn’t just seem silly; it seems downright foolhardy. But I should dive deeper than that. I have a lot of trouble computing this because it tells me to do something that I’ve learned nobody else will do in reciprocation. When I was younger, I wore my heart on my sleeve and thought it could be like a fishing lure to catch someone who would be smitten by my heart and what it had to offer, and that got me nothing- wait, scratch that; it got me a couple of friends’ girlfriends to use me for an emotional reservoir to rejuvenate themselves from while leading me to believe that someone truly cared about me (and that’s an intense story for me that I may share at a later time). I very much believe that I have a good heart, so if the problem isn’t with me, it must be the people who refused it- the women (once again, I am led to believe that they were all born with this secret motive to be unconditionally against me). So at this point, I’ve connected being unconditionally open with my feelings towards women with a result of being drained and not properly reciprocated- a one-way street. I’ve mentioned in my Fear Off that I can’t handle being in situations where I care so much more about someone than they care about me- this is where my fear comes from, this is what brought calluses on my heart. The way I see it, me not sharing my feelings with everyone openly isn’t a matter of me not being honest with myself (I’d say that I’m honest with myself and my feelings more than I’m dishonest about them, if that counts for anything); I don’t share my feelings with everyone openly because they don’t deserve it. Why should they get to be indulged with the pure and passionate feelings I may have towards them if they would not give me that in return? They shouldn’t, and I got tired of it at a certain point. I wish I could take back the feelings I gave to those who didn’t deserve it, which when I tally it up would seem to be all of them. As much as I wanted to love and be loved, I was never given the love I had to offer. I’ve had a couple people tell me they love me- and perhaps they do- but I don’t accept it because the love they feel for me isn’t their strongest love; that’s the love I want. If someone tells me they love me, but I know they love somebody else more, I can’t accept it. I’ve always had this desire to be #1 in someone’s heart because I’ve never been. At times, I think about if the world was ending and everybody had to pick someone else to save, I can’t imagine who would save me, because for each person I think of that may care about me, I can find someone they care about more than me- but enough about my stupid miserable fantasies.


I’m starting to aimlessly unravel right now, so let me cut to a conclusion: I will always have an urge to share all of the feelings I have to the people I care about and hope that they can give me the same in the same quantity, quality, and magnitude that I’ve given. But I can’t do that, because I’ve figured out through experience that it’s not good for me- I’ve only been hurt by it. It feels like running around in a thunderstorm holding a golf club in the air- I’m only going to get struck by lightning. I’m an idealistic person in my own head, and I wish people could be as open as I want them to be- as much as I can be open- but they’ve shown me they can’t. I go out into reality, and I see all of the things and people that are going to hurt me if I let them. I see all of the people that aren’t on my wavelength- the people that don’t get me and don’t want to get me. The world of people I’m surrounded by has never shown me a person who can love me, so for all I know, love isn’t even a thing in my world. And I can’t give the world something it won’t give me in return- I just can’t keep squeezing the blood out of my body for it anymore; I have to keep it for myself in order to survive.

Thane, in 2003 I was in your situation.

I took certain steps, and today I am a rake.

I thought about sending you a pm, but I thought I'd say it publicly, here, in your fine thread. You seem like a good person, so just like Neo, I offer you two pills.

I like "I" statements, so this all applied to me. If it applies to you, you will have to decide for yourself.

The blue pill is what society will told me: Be yourself, and someday the right girl will come along. I need not change, because she'll love me as I am. You will know when you meet her, they told me; it will just be... right.

The red pill is harder, and I didn't get much encouragement from the world. I lost friends, and was questioned to the very core of my identity. I was ignored, laughed at, and rejected.

Until I wasn't.

Until women started giving me unambiguous, obvious cues that they were attracted to me.

No one will judge a man who takes the blue pill society hands him. He is a nice guy, sure. But the old ratio applies: 20% of the men get 80% of the women. Cemeteries are filled with nice guys who never had the success with women they desired.

The red pill has been passed down through the generations, one man to another who found the keys, the methods. The actions are the same through time and place. Cassanova had it. So did James Dean.

The problem is that the freight train is comin', and it is comin' for each of us. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but someday.

In the meantime, that special girl is lost to another man. He had a certain quality, and now he has the woman.

The good news is that the methods to win women are not secret. They are not complex, and they don't change. They have been distilled in the last hundred years to a form that anyone with average intelligence and above average drive and determination can learn.

There are a number of ways to success with women, all proven. I have chosen one path, and the results speak for themselves.

Now, I see men every day who choose the blue pill. I don't judge them. Even if every man on earth chose the red pill I wouldn't fear competition: there is plenty of abundance for everybody...

...if they are willing to take the key that previous generations have given us, if we are willing to learn.

Choose wisely.

Oak,


This may not be the best time to admit, but I have never seen The Matrix. This (among many other classic movies I have never seen) could be the reason why I’ve turned into the counter-culture demon that I am today. I also really hate pills, so this whole analogy really is not ideal for me. BUT I DIGRESS.


I disagree about the blue pill. The message that the blue pill holds isn’t what society tells men. It’s what I’ve told myself, but the blue pill holds a different message. Society does not promote individualism- society has its agenda to shape men into the way it wants, and women into the way it wants. Men are molded to be money-centric worker bees that incessantly climb the ladder, kissing the asses of those above them, and exploiting those below them. They’re molded to be cold and calculating, and told that showing emotion is being weak and counterintuitive to being a man; emotion is for women to bear. Women are molded to be beauty-centric homemakers that shouldn’t seek to make their own future, because all they need to do is marry a man with good resources, and their future is set. Women are molded to exist simply for the men they will eventually marry, so they must be good at taking care of all of the things their future husbands will need taking care of.


Men are told that women are their oysters, and so long as you have the money to provide them, you can shuck however many you want. They are told that’s what women are there for. Women are told the opposite. They must stay pure for the sake of the future men that will have them. If they have sex with too many guys, they’ll be chastised, deemed as loose women, and written off as unworthy of a man who will provide them the kept life that all women are “destined” for.


This is not ideal.


The red pill you speak of implies the way to cheat the system- the “Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start” code that makes it so that 20% of men get 80% of all the women. The math alone sounds disrespectful at face value, and further perpetuates the so-called nature that men are meant to have women and women are meant to be had by men. And as generations went by, men who chose to be more cunning than the majority kept working on secret codes until they figured out the one that would magically turn women into unresisting oysters who would flock to those men and urge to be shucked. But the red pill isn’t exclusively for men. As women began to embrace the fact that they were not destined to play a supporting role for a man, and that they could live their own lives, they began to play the game that men played on them for generations. And the women who chose to be more cunning than the majority found their own secret code that would turn men into unresisting oysters who would flock to those women and urge to be shucked.


You are right when you say “the methods to win women are not secret,” for the red pill doesn’t cheat the system; it’s a part of the system now.


Today, we see a power struggle within the sexuality of men and women, and between the sexuality of men and women. People shame women who decide to have sex on their own terms instead of living by the terms of subjugating social norms, and yet people will also shame women if they’re repressing their sexuality and coming off as “prude.” People shame men who act like sex-crazed Neanderthals that will fuck any woman that hasn’t been dead for more than five minutes, and yet people will also shame men who haven’t lost their virginity before 16. Nice guys finish last because the guys who wear the fashionable clothes, have the fat wallets and whisper the sweetest nothings come out on top, and women are in a perpetual beauty contest not just to win, but to make sure they don’t face ridicule from both genders. Men have their sources of self-manufactured “wisdom” that teaches them how to manipulate women, and women have their sources of self-manufactured “wisdom” that teaches them how to manipulate men. Whatever team you think you’re on, the goal is to make sure you possess the other.


This is not ideal.


Women are not games that you have to play correctly to win. Men are not games that you have to play correctly to win. Women should not be robots that can be programmed to serve every whim of a man. Men should not be robots that can be programmed to serve every whim of a woman. Women are autonomous. Men are autonomous. We can choose every aspect of how we will live our own life, yet so many people end up conforming to the format that the system imposes on us, and free will is replaced by a seemingly elaborate set of extrinsic processes. The secret codes, methods, and “pills” that exist to warrant success with women and men only work on those who adhere to the processes. But they will not work on the true individuals.


We are all individuals at our core- snowflakes in the tundra. But people find comfort in conformity and homogeneity, and when one-of-a-kind snowflakes bunch together, it’s hard to tell them apart. And with labels trying to paste themselves on everyone in society, staying a genuine individual is tougher than taking the red pill and winning women within the system. But the wonderful existence of an individual, pure snowflake is more beautiful than all of the things society tells us is beautiful combined. If everyone peeled off all of the labels that society plastered on them, and ridded of the processes that the system imposed on them and embraced their core of individuality, there wouldn’t be a power struggle between men possessing women and women possessing men, because individuality will have superseded it. There won’t be two people that are identical, but one’s individual characteristics will attract another; perhaps someone that is similar, or perhaps very different. There’s no way to know, because every one of us is different; there are no methods, codes, or “pills” to cheat an individual.


I do not want to be one of the 20% of men who gets 80% of all the women. I do not want to be a person who knows how to push the special buttons on a woman to get her to do what I want. I have one genuine desire: I want to love the woman who genuinely wants to love me.


I do not want to be another person that succeeds within the system; I want to transcend the system.


I’m not worried about the freight train coming for me, because no matter what, I have an ability that the train does not: I can get off the track.

Hey Thane.

Gosh, thanks for that post: it was really profound, and really expanded my horizons. You are a fine writer, have clearly thought about this important topic, and gave me new perspectives on the oldest game of all.

Good luck out there. I hope you find what you are looking for. I'll read your future posts with interest.

Well said, Thane. Awesome.