YOU ARE NOT ALONE - A companion online community discussion board for The Mental Illness Happy Hour podcast with Paul Gilmartin

I've lived away from home since I was 20. I actually hated my home life since I was 7 and wanted to move away then. In the last couple of years, I've had a breakdown and started therapy. A lot of my issues (intimacy, esteem, anxiety) stem from my family of origin, and I'm making peace with the fact that I didn't have parents so much as had caretakers, and I have no real desire to return 'home'.

I listened to Paul's podcast on co-narcissism, last week, which spells out my family dynamic. Both my father, and my grandmother were narcissists (my father clinically diagnosed as such), with my mother and I play co-narcissistic roles. Now that my father is out of the picture and my grandmother dead, it seems my mom has become the narcissist in the dynamic, and for years, she'd talk at me about her need and situations. I'd get off the phone feeling drained, resentful, and it got to the point where I would sink when I saw she tried to skype me. (we live 3K miles apart)

Adding to this is that my grandmother-her mother-died suddenly, leaving a house. I don't live near enough to make it useful to live in, but she doesn't want to sell it. So for the past three years I've been taking care of it, costing me both in time and money. every time I'd suggest that we do something, she'd freak out, become catastrophic, and I'd have to try to reassure her.

I wrote a letter in November, saying she needed to decide what she wanted to do, or I was going to stop doing this. I said it was abusive and she wouldn't burden my other siblings in this way (they wouldn't allow her). 8 months later she finally transferred it me, so I've started on the process of refurbishment. When I tried to let her know what I was doing, she freaks out again, equating the refurbishment to an excavation. Normally, I'd would've listened and backed down, but when she said 'you don't know how much this affects me', I snapped. I was angry-angry that everyone else could move on with their lives but I would just have to keep circling while she decided on what to do, if anything. I was very calm, but I told her that she didn't know how it affected me, and I spelt it out for her. It then spilled over into how I feel ignored in the family, and I'm only needed when I'm 'useful', something that's been bothering me for a very long time. She was then reduced to sobbing, catastrophising how it was all her fault and she can never do anything right (Good point, I see where I get it from). Even in this, I'm having to back down from speaking my truth, and contacting her friends so that she doesn't feel alone.

This was a couple weeks ago. She mentioned she emailed me, but I don't see any of the emails, so I'm not sure if she doesn't know how email works, of if she's lying. I feel horrible-not for what I said, but I never wanted to wound. I just wanted to be heard for once. There's a family friend encouraging me to talk with her, but I really don't know how to engage. I actually don't wanna talk to her-if she freaks out again, I'll just get swallowed up and be focused on making her feel better, and I'm tired of parenting the adults in my life. I've tried writing a letter, but either is sounds detached, or there's a chance she'll interpret it as judgement on her. I've no relationship with my father, and I already feel orphaned, but I also need to say goodbye to this relationship as it stands. I want to invite her into a new relationship, but fear that no matter what I say or how I say it, she won't hear that. I've never been in a relationship, but my insides feel like this is what a break-up feels like. Any suggestions or advice would be welcomed

Just for reference-in my letter, I have offered to visit her, but I said I think I should stay someone outside of the home. I find everytime I go back, I revert back to 'I'll do it, because I'm useful'

Hi, Justdom: it sounds like there are layers and layers of intimacy issues and trust issues going on in your situation.
No wonder its confusing to know what feels right.

Your love for your mom and your need to not be pulled into a draining situation are a real balancing act.
No matter how much space you decide is right, consider that for years she was with someone diagnosed as Narcissistic. She probably had years of not being heard, of not feeling seen and probably has enormous pains and unmet needs and no real talent of getting them me. Its interesting you say she has taken on the role your dad had, as if she knows no other dynamic and it sounds like she/you both have a tendency to take on the care-taker role. How exhausting. Such as the house.
and then you say "Even in this, I'm having to back down from speaking my truth, and contacting her friends so that she doesn't feel alone."
Speak your truth, know your truth but know also that its sometimes okay to be silent with your truth. Tell her your needs and expectations but don't give her the truth about herself is she can't understand it...she may really have no idea how she impacts you and gosh, if only our relationships and behavior make sense and we rationally changed when someone points our flaws out. I don't work that way, though, and no one I know does...so that insight, that desire to change....no matter how clear it is to you, she can't/won't hear it if she is afraid of change (which takes me back to that house thing. change must scare her).
But also - it is NOT your job to call her friends so she doesn't feel alone. She has to take that responsibility on to herself. You don't have to do it and you don't have to feel guilty about it.
It sounds like you do love her but don't like the way she has treated you. You asked for advice...would she meet with you in some joint therapy where someone else is guiding the conversations and able to maybe show both of you how you interact and bring things out in each other?
The other piece of my advice: keep contact with your mom and be a part of each other's lives in certain limits. But you have to let go of any idea you will get the love you need or the validation you seek from her if she doesn't make huge changes.
That is sad and painful to give up that notion we all carry that if we could only heal/make better old hurts, it will all be okay. but there is no real going back.
What you need to do, aside from therapy for yourself, is to find ways to feel special with friends or groups just for who you are, not just how useful and competent you are. You clearly have much to give.
good luck.

Hi Cinnamon,
Thanks so much for your reply. I have been developing a small group of friends that I'm starting to realise like me for me, and not for what I can do. It's hard for me to accept that at times, and I find I can overcompensate or panic that because I've not heard from them, I'm no longer of use to them. There's a lot of noise in my head...

I do think therapy sessions would be great-the problem lies is the fact of distance, and would either me staying at home or her staying with me. If you (or anyone else) knows of any retreat centres that do focus on therapy, or even 'therapy camps', I'd love to hear about them.

I'm trying to restart communications with a letter (I'll talk it over with my therapist tonight), but I can't seem to get the tone right. Distance can really suck sometimes.

an update...

My mom emailed me. It was pleasant, simply asked me about some current event issue. I'm part relieved I don't have to make the first move, part angry she doesn't seem to respect my wishes (I asked her to wait for me to contact her), I'm wondering if she's trying to step over this-we don't communicate in our family so much as set off explosives then step over the rubble, pretending as if nothing happened.

I realise now that my options are to show mercy and compassion. Telling her, as my friends pointed out that 'she was a terribly mother, and I don't really see her as such' isn't going to pave the way to a new relationship. I'm struggling to let go of the past and deal with the present.

Hello justdom!

justdom wrote:part angry she doesn't seem to respect my wishes (I asked her to wait for me to contact her)

This part makes me worried for you in this dynamic. I would wait until you receive from her a communication that demonstrates she is willing to meet you over half-way - if she is willing to put in 51%, it would be hard to deny this is a very good sign.

But until then, wait until you are ready and your batteries are fully charged and you feel you have won sufficient internal battles.

Please take care. We here are all cheering for you - you are the expert on your own situation, so we support your agency. You deserve good things.

Hi, Justdom;

Kudos to you for continuing to set parameters that are both healthy for you and compassionate to others.
First, you asked if I knew of retreats where you and your mom might meet. No, I have never done a retreat but I know many people who have but my gut reaction to that request: that would be far too intense and far too much time for where you and your mom are at right now. Part of what you need to change, based on your last update on emails, is the patterns of communication and so focus on healing patterns now.

I think its important to recognize the limits of who your mom is because I have seen too many people with broken hearts and souls staying in unhealthy patterns hoping to "the next time" or "after therapy" or whatever...getting it "right" finally. (yeah, I am on that group). and you are battling also what your mother's expectations of family are and what for years she expected to find in your relationship....these things are deeply wired, changeable but not by time alone or magic.

I think your pattern of boundaries, lessening expectations on your part of what she will be able to give you as a mom, finding others who can give that to you, are all so wise. And then, when that feels more comfortable, I think you might look into a joint therapy with your mom and that could be done by phone initially. I know when I moved, my therapist did phone sessions for 3 months till I got a new therapist and got past some issues and I know a family that had family therapy that included a daughter studying several states away by phone. Though both those were established relationships before the phone sessions. (I know the net has some but I have no experience with that).

I think until you have been able to change in your head your reactions, (by imagining scenarios, meditation, whatever), it will be not impossible but so darned hard to not react as you have all your life - its your brain's default stance. and her's as well. You mentioned writing a letter...do that but make it more of a journal and it helps to lesson the emotions some so when you talk, its a dialogue.
Take care.
(amazon does have some great books on narcissist moms and I know Paul's site gets something if you buy from there somehow...)

and manuel moe, I know you have wise advice so often but I never play the percentages in relationships. It is never a math equation that comes out okay and then it devolves into scorekeeping or I did this now you do that...its not a true connection.
and I truly believe we don't see how much some people struggle to put in what they do in a relationship - how do you quantify that?
compassion is not divisible...it opens your whole heart.
sorry if I am too blunt

yeah, I was too left brained how I wrote that. I meant...

"past the point of merely transactional 'tit-for-tat' or 'if-I-love-you-then-you-owe-me', even if past that point by the tiniest bit".


my mom and dad are particularly "transactional" about love-giving, which makes it not be "love-giving" at all. that is the lens by which I am viewing this

Thanks Manuel and Cinnamon,
Manuel: That's exactly how it was in my family, and especially with displeasure. I think that's why my anxiety is off the scale at the moment. I was conditioned to expect retribution on some level for speaking my truth, and because my mom was so polite in the first email, I feel like the hammer can come from anywhere, including my boss.

Cinnamon: I think you're right as well. In speaking with my friends, I'm detecting this is my opportunity to for forgiveness and mercy, and I don't mean that in a 'Look how good I am' way. I would love for her to recognise her faults and at least acknowledge them, and maybe I'm justified in saying so. But what exactly does that solve? How does me saying 'You were a terrible mom, I don't see you as such, but you couldn't help it, and I don't hold it against you' promote ANY healing? This is hard because I have to work with this, and it feels heavy, and I want to shout it's not fair. And, it's not. But as someone said, I can choose to be right, or choose to be happy. I can focus on the present relationship with my mom, and make that as healthy as possible, and maybe, someday, if needed, explore this past with her. Or I can justifiably call her into account and destroy everything now.