Need so much intense motivation to accomplish so little!

[dare i say it]

I guess I see the "giving up" part of my brain and the "tendency toward a depressed mood" part of my brain as different.

I totally agree that "giving up" thoughts must be ignored. Still, I could use some clarification on the distinction you're making above. Aren't feelings of hopelessness and helplessness symptoms of depression?

As for having "tendencies toward" one thing or another, I don't know if I'm genetically predisposed to anxiety or depression. I really don't know, and also it doesn't matter because it wouldn't change my approach. I know this though. There are at least 4 major categories of things related to my particular brand of mental illness: thoughts, feelings, behavior, and biochemistry. Picture a tetrahedron with these 4 things at the corners. Which corners can I "grab" and do something with? That's a personal question that different people will answer differently. Whichever I choose though, when I pull one of those things to a better place, the others will come along.

[manuel_moe_g]

My thinking is that slightly depressed, slightly anxious people can do certain things better than optimistic, at-ease people. When something that needs to be done right, I am glad that *I* am doing it, and not an optimistic, at-ease person, because that kind of person will leave stuff undone that could cause problems later.

So I prefer to be slightly depressed, slightly anxious, and have the tools and experience to deal with those. Because, I am also in a good position to notice suffering, and acknowledge and validate suffering, and help people who are suffering. There are "healthy" people that I don't respect and that I don't wish to act like.

My depression and anxiety puts me at risk of giving up, or wasting time and energy, and those things are deadly for me. So, my goal is to successfully manage wanting to give up, and wasting time and energy. After that, I prefer to have my natural personality come through.

There are at least 4 major categories of things related to my particular brand of mental illness: thoughts, feelings, behavior, and biochemistry. Picture a tetrahedron with these 4 things at the corners. Which corners can I "grab" and do something with? That's a personal question that different people will answer differently. Whichever I choose though, when I pull one of those things to a better place, the others will come along.

I would agree with this, and I think this is a good way of thinking about it.

I am working now on getting very comfortable with the idea of failure. I am trying to relax my way into accepting failure for my highest goals. Because, for me, even a chance of failure makes me anxious, my anxiety feeds my depression, I give up, and the "giving up" kind of living is deadly for me. So I want to have a good, healthy, realistic relationship with failure, and make failure my friend.

[dare i say it]

If you're satisfied with your life as it is, or if you have a clear idea of what you want and how to get it, then that's wonderful. I don't really understand maintaining a low level of anxiety and depression on purpose, but it's not my choice to make. So all I can really do is respect your autonomy and wish you the best.

[manuel_moe_g]

It is not that I am satisfied, it is just that my deadliest worry is this:

[1] a lifestyle of giving up and completely withdrawing and wasting time and energy and sleeping through the night and a lot of the day - this lifestyle would lead to suicide

[2] my anxiety and depression, if they feed upon each other, in a reinforcing loop of cause-effect-cause-effect-cause-effect etc., lead to [1]

[3] trying major course corrections and seeking magical-cure-alls, and hoping for magical-cure-alls, lead to [2], because I am prone to all-or-nothing black-or-white type thinking

[4] so I am patiently training myself to be comfortable with a life of constant minor course corrections - if I see I am slightly getting off course, then I make a slight course correction. Even if I am majorly off course, the surest & fastest & best way to get back on course is a sequence of minor course corrections. Exactly like a car with bald tires driving on ice, patience is rewarded with not having a fatal spin out

Someone might say - hey, instead of being a car with bald tires driving on ice, why not be a sports car with fancy Michelin tires driving on a manicured German autobahn in perfect weather. But I am worried that would be, for me, a manifestation of [3]

I big part of it is that I don't even feel confident enough to seek a therapist, because I am scared of how I would deal with (a) disappointment in the therapist (b) disappointment with how I respond to therapy, and if I deal with it poorly it would lead to [2]

[manuel_moe_g]

wow, writing here shows the evolution of my thinking even over a short period of time. I get caught on "serious means extreme", "if not extreme, then not serious"

changing my relationship with failure (failure is not death), and being serious in a self-nurturing way (being serious does not mean sticking bamboo splinters under my fingernails as motivation)

[dare i say it]

I don't know quite what to make of what you're saying, if I'm honest, but let me ask you this: What if I told you I was in really terrible physical shape? Let's say I'm 35, very overweight, very sedentary, with a very poor diet, very low quality of life, with perhaps imminent risk to my life. Then I told you that I tried getting into better shape years ago and "it didn't work." You may say something like this: Dan, it's always going to be your choice how you manage your life. There is no such thing as perfect health, and you can count on it being difficult, but most people find that improving their health is one of the best investments they can make anyway. I would only ask that when we talk, that you please stick to [1]genuine feelings and [2]things you know to be true. If you're not sure about something, just say you're not sure.

That said, if you don't have at least a kernel of hope in the therapy process that you're willing to hold onto and nurture, then now is not the time to start therapy. I know from my own experience with multiple therapists that it doesn't work very well when I,
[1] secretly expect the process to fail and I deliberately kill hope before it can grow,
[2] go into it with my own strong ideas about what therapy should be like, and
[3] hide things from my therapist.

So, if/when you're ever ready to see a therapist,
[1] find someone you can build trust with,
[2] deliberately keep hope alive that it could help you,
[3] allow someone else to be the expert in the room (take direction), and
[4] hold nothing back, be relentlessly honest.

The last three items are still hard for me, but I do them anyway and it's more that worth it.

[manuel_moe_g]

I am not arguing with you, even if it seems that way. I am just typing out exactly what is foremost in my mind, not caring right now if it is true or false or reasonable or unreasonable.

That said, if you don't have at least a kernel of hope in the therapy process that you're willing to hold onto and nurture, then now is not the time to start therapy. I know from my own experience with multiple therapists that it doesn't work very well when I,
[1] secretly expect the process to fail and I deliberately kill hope before it can grow,
[2] go into it with my own strong ideas about what therapy should be like, and
[3] hide things from my therapist.

This is a very good point. " if you don't have at least a kernel of hope in the therapy process that you're willing to hold onto and nurture..." is a good description of where my head is at. "secretly expect the process to fail..." also

I don't have a problem with hiding things, because hiding things causes inner tension, and I immediately break the inner tension by telling the truth because I fight against inner tension. Part of it is also growing up with an alcoholic parent, I am used to outer-tension and violence and things being emotionally charged, so I will take steps to escalate the outer situation, and that is compatible with telling the truth out loud in very shocking terms

"go into it with my own strong ideas about what therapy should be like" I wish to God that it was another me standing there, but that second me would have strength at the exact moment I have none

I am so terrified of judgement at the exact moment that I need leniency, and leniency at the very moment I need judgement is dangerous to my future

"find someone you can build trust with..." they will be stupid, and cold and callus and only interested in getting paid and protecting their own ego, and lazy, and they will take the very first opportunity to block a real connection

"allow someone else to be the expert in the room" means putting up with them protecting their ego in a thuggish unthinking way, and letting them always put the blame on exactly the things that I have the least control over, which is another way of allowing them to protect their ego even if the therapy fails

"deliberately keep hope alive that it could help you" is then impossible, because I would feel so relieved if my therapist was someone with experience who was strong when I was weak, and who held me to a high standard over the things I have the most control over right now - but that will never happen, because it will be a cold, petty, willful, egotistic, vindictive, blame-passing person

[[[ actually, this is a ray of hope, I like this description:

[A] therapist has experience helping people
is strong and supportive when I am weak
[C] will hold me to a high standard over the things I have the most control over right now

this seems very possible, and very nice, this would be wonderful, and doesn't seem impossible ]]]

What if I told you I was in really terrible physical shape? Let's say I'm 35, very overweight, very sedentary, with a very poor diet, very low quality of life, with perhaps imminent risk to my life. Then I told you that I tried getting into better shape years ago and "it didn't work." You may say something like this: Dan, it's always going to be your choice how you manage your life. There is no such thing as perfect health, and you can count on it being difficult, but most people find that improving their health is one of the best investments they can make anyway. I would only ask that when we talk, that you please stick to [1]genuine feelings and [2]things you know to be true. If you're not sure about something, just say you're not sure.

I am not going to assume this is confession, because I want you to have control over the power dynamic here. I am not going to assume that my autobiography is an appropriate because human suffering deserves dignity and breaking down all that would isolate humans from each other.

I like your description of your therapist very much, because that kind of speaking is consistent with [A] not taking advantage of power dynamic not bullying with an autobiography [C] dignity [D] breaking down all that would isolate humans from each other

That is wonderful.

I am not comparing situations or trying to claim universality of my personal experience. I am overweight with a fatty liver. I am bothered by my inability to stay away from harmful foods, and my disinterest in focused exercise for weight loss. Or my disinterest in weighing myself regularly.

I will come back to this issues, this is a lot of typing.

All the best, take care, we are all cheering for your very best today and tomorrow!

[[ By the way, I deleted all my RSS feeds, and my Reddit account, and my G+ circles this morning, because I need more time for writing what is inside my head. I hope this is a good thing, I do feel good about it ]]

[dare i say it]

That was a long post. I'm touched that you put so much thought into it. I never know, but it seems like I may have crossed a line or plucked a nerve. I have trouble separating myself from other people's situations. Sometimes that leads me to offer unsolicited advice.

The scenario I gave was mostly not autobiographical--just an example to make a point. I am going to stand by what I said though about genuine feelings and things I know to be true. It's a general rule I've adopted recently. People can tell me all they want about feelings and facts, but when they confuse the two I reserve the right to call b.s. on it. For example, there is a subtle but vitally important difference between saying "it feels impossible" and "it is impossible." The former is a genuine feeling and the latter is a dangerous lie. To me, the wording is extremely important. As a student of CBT, I'm sure you're aware that predicting the future with absolute certainty, mind-reading, and making our own happiness dependent on someone else are all based on fallacies. I reserve the right to call a fallacy a fallacy. I'll try hard to do so without judgment because, lord knows, I've made a million of those errors in my life. Still, I'm kinda done just nodding and agreeing when people tell me there's nothing they can do. If the best thing I can do in a situation is bite my tongue, then I can do that too and that's fine.

[manuel_moe_g]

I am a little overwhelmed without my usual time wasters: Reddit, G+, Google Reader, iPhone web browser (deleted), Google news, BBC news

Printing out address and phone to make appointment

I think this is reasonable, I will feel better if I communicate this right away

[A] therapist has experience helping people
is strong and supportive when I am weak
[C] will hold me to a high standard over the things I have the most control over right now

predicting the future with absolute certainty, mind-reading, and making our own happiness dependent on someone else

I have to talk through things, or else I feel overwhelmed

[manuel_moe_g]

More placeholder typing. I cut my hair yesterday, because I cannot stand going to the barbershop - what a weirdo I am. Staying present in the moment, I need that to practice gratitude.