Episode 105: Ali Handal

[lance]

What was the proof that the photos were of underage people? My take from the interview was she got pissed that she wasn't in the fantasy he wrote involving her family. Everything else was secondary. If that's the worst thing that's happened in her life, then my heart pumps piss for her.

[gfyourself]

My first visceral feelings around this episode were - she is totally a bitch and while of course the ex-boyfriends name was not stated he probably doesn't need to get kicked in the teeth about this 15 or 20 years later.

I did enjoy the interview AB (after boyfriend) although it was a bit difficult to concentrate.

Its important Paul that you do these episodes where the "protagonists" are not necessarily entirely sympathetic. It was jarring because it hadn't happened in the first 104 episodes and then WHAM! I appreciate Paul you following up here in the forums with your thoughts.

Paul said:

I then thought her story was compelling in how she chose to handle it and perpetuate herself as feeling wronged, which can be it's own kind of sickness.

Agree

I appreciate that she copped to that.

She didn't cop to it as much as I would have liked. She suggested it was wrong a few times but then went back to how everything affected her (and only her) very quickly. At the same time, I think if Paul "Mike Wallace-d" her I think the interview would have ground to a halt. In retrospect Paul I think you handled it well because if you get a rep of probing past your interview subjects, you might find it hard to find them in the future!

"I found her to be very open and honest and human."

I did in the second part of the interview. I think her attitude towards the boyfriend was "Yeah, I was such a bitch... hahahaha" and self-centred. I think there would be more there with probing but honestly as I said above I'm not sure how far Paul can go on topics like this.

Hey Paul, thanks for a good episode and hey, at least we got some great forum discussion about it!

While I'd admit its pretty unlikely to happen I'd love to hear the ex-boyfriends side of this.

[Cheldoll]

I saw this thread -- didn't read it, of course, because spoilers ruin lives -- before listening to the episode so I knew it was going to be interesting, haha.
I vaguely remember Paul not knowing much about this story -- wasn't it one that she didn't mention while they were at lunch? I wonder if he didn't think this would be as much of a focal point of the podcast than her obsessive nagging self-doubt and the difficulties facing her gender in her field of work? I don't really know. It's definitely one of my least favorite episodes though.

We should kinda remember that it's the Mental Illness Happy Hour, not the Perfectly Sane and Emotionally Mature Hour. Was her reaction and how she treated that guy right? No. But was her reaction surprising? Sadly... no. It's way too common thanks to the poor understanding people have of mental illness. I wish Paul kept the longer description of the podcast in the intro --

This is The Mental Illness Happy Hour: an hour of honesty about all the battles in our heads. From medically diagnosed conditions to everyday compulsive negative thinking. Feelings of dissatisfaction, disconnection, inadequacy, and that vague sinking feeling that the world is passing us by. Give us an hour, we’ll give you a hot ladle of awkward and icky.

Compulsive negative thinking? Check. Dissatisfaction, disconnection, inadequacy? Double plus check. This was definitely awkward and icky, albeit for different reasons than we're used to. I feel like Paul tried to stick up for the guy a bit but didn't want to alienate his guest. Someone mentioned that the ex-boyfriend's story would be more interesting and I definitely agree with that, but I still found myself relating to Ali's negative self-talk and was actually fond of her fear and love lists.

I think there's something to be said for the fact that even though Ali embodies one of those "perfect" people who misunderstand and often abuse the rest of us, this episode still had enough material to be the Mental Illness Happy Hour.
She's not perfect. It's easy to hate her for what she did to her ex-boyfriend. It's easy to label her as not one of us and cast her out.

But we're not looking for easy, are we?
Easy would be to try to pretend that we're not fucked up in the head and go along our merry way.

It's hard to face the shit that terrifies us directly in the face. It's hard to confront our past traumas and the mistakes we've made. And it's just as hard to have compassion for someone we have trouble relating to and who reminds us of someone who may have hurt us. But all of these things are good for us.

[ColemanSilk]

Wow, I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt this way.

I've listened to almost all the MIHH episodes and it's my favorite podcast. I don't think I ever disliked a guest until this one. It's one thing to invade someone's privacy--that's bad, but people are curious and it happens. However I felt her subsequent judgement of this guy was atrocious. At that point I had no empathy for this guest.

That said, I was fine with the way Paul handled the interview. His strength is allowing people to tell their stories without judging them. (I especially appreciate how when he reads even the most fucked up survey responses, he just reads them and does not interject morality...he lets it breathe, which is perfect). If he jumped down this woman's throat, it would have killed the interview.

[CharlotteC]

Paul, if you're reading, it would take a lot more than a few disagreements to get me to stop listening! I love the podcast, even when I disagree with parts of it (which is rare). And I do like it when an interview touches a few nerves and gets me examining my response.

I do agree that photos are very different from written erotica, especially private erotica. If the ex-boyfriend was looking at child pornography, all I can say is I'm glad he went to therapy. But it frustrates me that Ali doesn't remember what was said in their therapy sessions -- it sounds like they mainly dealt with her anger over a) his pot-smoking, and b) that he wasn't looking at pictures/writing stories about HER. I dated a pedophile/hebephile when I was a teenager, and I'm still trying to piece together my feelings about how layers of denial enabled me to stay with him long after I knew something was wrong (not to mention my feelings about being the underage girlfriend of this man). I'm not trying to play the "my trauma was worse than your trauma" game, but I would have liked to get some insight into how a person copes with discovering they're dating a pedophile. I'm still not convinced that Ali was.

That said, your compassion for both people involved in the story is inspiring. Your heart is so big, and I'm grateful for that.

Cheldoll, what you said in your last paragraph was very wise and I agree completely. Thank you.

[ouchouch]

I found her mild assertion that some of the photos may have included underage girls to be very unconvincing. She never explicitly says the material involved children (other than the hand-written material, which doesn't carry the implied harm of photos that sexualize underage individuals by directly involving them in the process), but casually says she "thinks" some may have been underage. That's hardly concrete proof. She clearly shamed and emotionally abused him, which can't be justified regardless of the content of the photos. She does own up to her role, but only when Paul prompts her and largely, she acknowledges it with a laugh and a "yeah, ain't I stinker?" kind of attitude. She even admits that she still believes it wasn't "possible" for her to hurt him like she was hurt (by invading his privacy and largely finding things one would likely find in most 19-year-old boys' bedrooms), which shows a total lack of empathy. Like many, I found her to be extremely unlikable and couldn't find any common ground with someone who has clearly been the kind of judgmental person who has hurt previous guests and listeners like myself.

On the bright side, bad episodes like this make me realize what a great job Paul does so often with selecting guests and creating entertaining, helpful conversations. Thank you, Paul. Keep up the great work.

[TheSMark]

I have a hard time tearing anyone down that has the guts to go on a podcast and talk about topics like ones that are discussed on MIHH. Mental illness takes many forms, has many manifestations, pick your own way to say "there's lots of ways issues come out" and place it here too.

It seems like the guest this week definitely has her own issues that she didn't really feel the need to discuss, and focused on how other people's issues (perceived or real) can affect other people. Sometimes it does need to be said, that yes, the mental issues that we are all dealing with DO have effects that are felt by other people. Sometimes we do need a reminder of that, and as misguided as this attempt on the guest's behalf ended up being, I still think this was a good episode.

Perhaps the guest is one of the unknown quantity of people out there who have not hit the point where they realize they need some assistance. I don't think that makes the conversation any less valid. However, her badly constructed reasoning in certain cases may have done that for her.

[ngh65]

I did not have a negative reaction to Ali's story about her boyfriend. Remembering my maturity level at 19, I might have reacted the same way. If I found written fantasies involving family members, I probably would have freaked out too. I'm not saying it's right--just understandable.

When it comes to sexual issues/fantasies, we're all on a spectrum, and we should try to have empathy for where each of us is on that continuum. So if your fantasies are sort of unconventional, try not to judge your companion if he or she is shocked. Of course you don't want to be judged by your loved one either, but you might need to give him or her some time.

[KeithB]

I hesitate to say this because I don't want to be attacked. But, I think I am going to be the lone (or one of the few) voice of dissent here. I really felt like Ali just wanted to do a good thing, and ended up seeing a bunch of stuff she wasn't expecting to see. I can understand not wanting someone to snoop because everyone deserves privacy. I also understand that people can't help their feelings and the boyfriend can't help what he thinks and what turns him on. Believe me, there are plenty of things that I think and feel that I wish I didn't.

Having said all of that, I feel like...just like the boyfriend has the right to his feelings, so does Ali. If she finds the fact that he wrote sexual stories about her family to be disturbing, she has every right to that feeling. And, when you're that young and inexperienced, you may not understand how to handle certain situations.

Now, obviously, I don't agree with the part of her story about wanting to hurt him. I think that was absolutely wrong. However, I think we owe her just as much compassion for being unable to deal with her feelings maturely, just like we owe compassion to the boyfriend's feelings.

I really do feel like there is a lot of gray area here, with a couple of people who didn't know how to handle their emotions. And, I think, by telling her story, she was partially "confessing her sins" and admitted to being, in her words, a "total bitch." I think she knows some of the things she did was wrong.

Anyway, that's all, I just feel she deserves more empathy than she's getting here. (Even though we all have the right to be angry if that's what we're feeling.)

[ghughes1980]

What I think bothers me the most is Ali appeared to learn nothing about the experience or retain any of the information gained from the therapist. She is just as raw now about the situation as she was that day. If she had learned something then maybe I could cut her some slack. She seemed to brush it off and dismiss the boyfriend and her subsequent treatment of him which is I think what I find the most disturbing.