Really fucking depressed and angry.

[manuel_moe_g]

It is true life is unfair, and it is true that the most effective way to life is to internalize and shoulder the burden, but it doesn't follow that you are undeserving of love and compassion.

I was talking to my therapist about the idea that every good thing I do is just stuff that I should do anyway and that all the good things I do just lets me work my way up to zero - all the good things I do just lets me hit par.

But lets switch out weary and put in a random guy in weary's shoes. That random guy would be uncaring to your wife and bulldozer over all her weaknesses. That random guy would be inarticulate and lousy at self-examination. That random guy would not strive to achieve. That random guy would take the easy way out and sink into a comfortable garbage life of thoughtlessness. That random guy would turn everything to garbage piled on garbage and all responsibilities would be thrown out the window.

So if substituting out weary and putting in a random guy would have all these negative outcomes, then weary must have some inherent value, and that would be the basis for weary deserving love and compassion.

So it follows that all the good weary does does not NOT add up to zero. There is some value there.

The value weary possesses means weary deserves to have his feelings validated as real. The first step to compassion.

[weary]

Moe,

then weary must have some inherent value, and that would be the basis for weary deserving love and compassion.

Thanks for that. I really have trouble telling myself those things and I don't always believe it when other people try to convince me of them.

all the good things I do just lets me work my way up to zero

This is a big mental block to me and a major contributor to my depression and anger. It is the feeling that the hole has gotten so deep that I will never be able to climb out of it, no matter what I do. I am always just trying to claw my way to the surface, and even if I were ever to get there, that's not accomplishing anything. It is just the absence of failure and loss.

I am having a bad day. My wife and I got into a long fight this morning, and I ended up being very late for work as a result and now I am feeling guilty and ashamed about that, guilty and ashamed about the fight and my behavior during it, scared about getting everything done at work today and worried that I am going to overlook things because I am upset and scattered, self-conscious that people are judging me or that they can see that I am an emotional wreck even though I have snapped into professional work mode, and, of course, still really upset over the things that we were fighting over.

It wasn't even that much of a fight - I don't know how to describe these things when they happen, and fighting is not really right because we are not generally attacking each other. I am too much of a fucking coward and she is too good at deflection for me to come out and say what I'm feeling and why I'm angry. I end up focusing my anger on myself, which I did in dramatic fashion talking (no, yelling, screaming and crying) about how fucked up and stupid I am, and how I feel like I have to accommodate everyone else's wishes at the expense of my own and that I can't express my needs and nobody can help me with them anyway. I melt down, she melts down, we both are consumed with so much anger, sadness, there is so much tension and anxiety in the air.

It was my fault, to the extent that I am the one that got upset first. I got angry about something, but I had to get going to work and she had to go back to sleep, so I thought it was just going to move on, but suddenly she's in the bathroom too, and I'm still angry but apologizing for being angry, and next thing I know we are both upset, and it just derails from there, and I have these explosive surges of frustration and rage, followed by self-realization and collapse into tears, and she is doing her own getting angry and crying and slowly getting more disconnected from the sleep medication she took at the beginning of all this.

The thing is, the precipitating event was anxiety. Her huge fucking ball of anxiety and how it inhibits her functioning. And my anxiety too, which is always operating at high levels. I am stressed out by work, stressed out by her shitty behavior, stressed out by the messes all over the house, stressed out at the thought of things never getting better, ovewhelmed by the fact that everything seems to be on my plate, my fault, my duty, my responsibility and I can't depend on her for anything.

And we are taking a trip tomorrow. Just for a weekend. Just to see family (mine). But that causes tension for her. Packing. Being places on time. Being organized. So she is anxious about it, and anxious that she is going to fuck it up and "get in trouble" (i.e. I will be angry at her). And to her credit, she is trying to plan ahead and

I just want things to be easy. I just want to be able to say - we have to leave for the airport at 1:30, so we will just get up in the morning and I will drop the cat off at the kennel on the way to work, then ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS GET UP AND BE PACKED AND READY BY 1:30 and that's it. But it doesn't work that way. She wants the cat dropped off today because somehow she won't be able to get packed today if the cat is there. But it is only easy to take the cat in the morning... but she's not up in the morning... and I didn't have time/remember/think about taking the cat in the morning BECAUSE WHY WOULD I DROP OFF THE FUCKING CAT AT THE FUCKING KENNEL MORE THAN 24 HOURS BEFORE WE ARE LEAVING? That is something a fucking crazy person would do. Probably most of you think we are crazy for even boarding our cat for a weekend trip rather than just leaving her with a lot of food. But the cat is as anxious and fucked up as my wife and I. This is my life. A simple, what should be fun thing like going to visit family and meet my newborn nephew turns into a fucking chore. And if it's a fucking chore for her because of her problems, you know what - SHE can deal with them, right? Why does it have to make things worse for me? But I have my own anxiety and issues about the trip. And they are amplified by the fact that last time we flew we MISSED OUR PLANE BECAUSE SHE COULDN'T GET READY ON TIME and I was so fucking angry, so yeah, I'm primed and wired and worked up about this too. Everything is such a fucking big deal for her. Nothing can just get done and over with. She places these limits on what she thinks she can do that to me are unreasonably low and then doesn't even meet those all the time. But somehow everything ends up being my fault because I get angry about it.

The thing is, she's right. My anger comes from the fact that I want things to be a certain way, or feel that they should be a certain way, and they're not. Is it her fault? Is it my fault? Is it anyone's fault? Who the fuck knows. Who cares. But I don't understand what to do about it. And it makes me feel like I'm just a rigid, selfish crybaby who is unhappy because he doesn't get what he wants. Where is the balance? How do I understand what to do?

Moe, I'm really trying that self-compassion thing right now, but it scares the fuck out of me because sometimes I feel like that leads to bad places. It will lead to more pain and loss and depression. I'm screwed. It's too late. Nobody can help me out of this hole. Nobody can even understand what the fuck I am talking about. Every move to try to take care of myself and be compassionate to myself seems to hurt and upset my wife or other people. And I need things from other people. I am frustrated. I am sad. I am really angry, really tired, and hopeless and fucking desperate.

And yet at the same time I know that I'm OK. I can take a deep breath, suck it up, put my big boy pants on, cram these feelings back down in their hole, and get on with my day. Do what I have to do at work all day and try to feel like a human being and not a pile of shit again. And that will get me through the day and maybe then it will fall apart again at home tonight, maybe the weekend trip will be a stressful experience, or maybe it will be OK. The point is, just because I can push my way through it, this isn't living. It certainly isn't thriving. It's barely existing. And it feels barely acceptable.

And yet, as I write that, I can hear my wife through her sobs this morning, saying "I'm tired of just apologizing for who I am and for existing. I'm tired of feeling like no matter what I do, I will never be good enough or acceptable." Which makes me feel horrible. Like a mean person. Like a villian. LIke an abuser. All because I want things and need things. I am afraid that she can't or won't give me, so I am afraid to ask them because she will feel like she's not good enough if she can't. And then I am a jerk for wanting them, or an asshole for asking for them, plus I don't get them in the first place. It's always my fault, my responsibility. It's never her fault or her responsibility.

[manuel_moe_g]

Moe, I'm really trying that self-compassion thing right now, but it scares the fuck out of me because sometimes I feel like that leads to bad places. It will lead to more pain and loss and depression.

I am mad at you, weary. I am mad because you will not even consider that your own feelings deserve validation, just because, there is no reason to search far and wide for a reason, your feelings deserve validation. So I will validate your feelings for you, all by myself. Because you refuse to join me!

I can see how the dynamic between my wife and I is just like you and your wife, just with the roles reversed. I am the basketcase in my relationship with my wife.

I want to beat your wife with a wet noodle for not saying "weary, your feelings deserve to be validated, and so I validate your feelings. I am sorry I am not stronger so that I could take some of your burden upon myself, but you deserve to have your feelings validated." But I guess she is in a very scary place where she doesn't have the capability to say those words. Her weakness adds to your burden, through no fault of your own, weary.

Anyway, I validate your feelings. You have a right to your feelings. The testimony of your feelings is reliable - there are choices and responsibilities that inform responses to those feelings, but the feelings themselves are reliable and valid.

[weary]

"weary, your feelings deserve to be validated, and so I validate your feelings. I am sorry I am not stronger so that I could take some of your burden upon myself, but you deserve to have your feelings validated."

She does say those things to me sometimes. And to be fair, she says them pretty regularly when I give her the opportunity to - that is, when I actually am able to honestly and fully articulate my feelings to her. We are both too insecure and too sensitive to upsetting the other person. It is very hard, I think, for her to validate my feelings because she is always walking a tightrope of feeling depressed and worthless, and when I am reacting to things it pushes buttons and triggers things for her.

Just like the compassion thing - it is hard to be compassionate to myself and compassionate to her at the same time, because I feel like there isn't enough room for both. It's like being compassionate to her means that she is off the hook for doing things that hurt me. Same thing with validation. It is hard. If we both hurt so much and are so scared and angry and tired, how the fuck do we function? One of us has to rise above it, right? I'm just tired of it always being me.

There's the other issue that I guess I need more than validation of my feelings. But I don't know what it is. Just having my feelings validated doesn't feel any better. Maybe I'm just not believing it or accepting it. I don't know. Because if she does X, and X hurts me, and I express that, and she validates it, but she keeps on doing X... what does that mean? If she really can't help doing X, does that make me an asshole? If she can help doing X but does it anyway, does that make her an asshole? How can we even tell the difference between these two extremes?

I am mad at you, weary. I am mad because you will not even consider that your own feelings deserve validation, just because, there is no reason to search far and wide for a reason, your feelings deserve validation. So I will validate your feelings for you, all by myself. Because you refuse to join me!

I acknowledge and validate that I am angry, sad and disappointed. It doesn't make me a bad person, or a weak person, or a selfish person, to have those feelings. I can't help having those feelings; they are the feelings that I have. It is acceptable and understandable that I would feel those things about situations and behaviors that cause me pain and stress and leave me feeling exhausted and deprived. These feelings don't own me, or control me, but they are part of me and I can't keep trying to shove them down, or mutate them into something less than what they are, or just simply pretend that they don't exist. I'm a good person, I do good things, and I deserve respect and love from myself and from other people.

How's that for a start?

I just don't understand what to do after that. Because I want to stop having those feelings because they really, really hurt. Or eliminate the causes of them. And that is where I feel scared and hopeless and alone.

[manuel_moe_g]

it is hard to be compassionate to myself and compassionate to her at the same time, because I feel like there isn't enough room for both.

Yeah I hear you. But you have to do both because they are both parts of the same thing. You can try to push compassion for another above compassion for yourself, but it cannot be done, because they are just different parts of the same thing.

There's the other issue that I guess I need more than validation of my feelings. But I don't know what it is. Just having my feelings validated doesn't feel any better. Maybe I'm just not believing it or accepting it. I don't know. Because if she does X, and X hurts me, and I express that, and she validates it, but she keeps on doing X... what does that mean? If she really can't help doing X, does that make me an asshole? If she can help doing X but does it anyway, does that make her an asshole? How can we even tell the difference between these two extremes?

There is a middle-ground where there is pain, but no suffering. Suffering = Pain + Hopelessness + No-Compassion. There can be pain and nobody is the asshole. Just pain that is part of life, and pain that two people can make a plan to route around the pain, to avoid the pain as much as possible.

These feelings don't own me, or control me, but they are part of me and I can't keep trying to shove them down, or mutate them into something less than what they are, or just simply pretend that they don't exist. I'm a good person, I do good things, and I deserve respect and love from myself and from other people.

This is awesome!

Because I want to stop having those feelings because they really, really hurt. Or eliminate the causes of them. And that is where I feel scared and hopeless and alone

When things are painful for me, I feel like to breakdown and I feel overwhelmed. First, I give myself permission to fail. Then, I hug the inner child in me that is in terrible pain. Then I write things down in my notebook. Then, I enter "unfuck" mode - in complete chunks that are very doable, I "unfuck" my situation and environment, complete chunk by complete chunk, until I get stuck "unfucking" my situation. It is only "unfucking" when you are doing short tasks that leave things neater and more capable than before - no huge undertakings where things get worse before they get better - no "unfucking" chunk should leave things more disorganized than when you started. I do as much "unfucking" as possible, until I realize things need more planning and things need more prioritizing. Then I break my tasks into very short pieces, sometimes as little as 20 seconds. I follow along in my notebook. After a while, I collapse because I am weak. Then I forgive myself and have compassion for myself. Then I start over.

[weary]

Thanks Moe. I will keep trying.

Just pain that is part of life, and pain that two people can make a plan to route around the pain, to avoid the pain as much as possible.

Me trying to route around my pain hurts her; her trying to route around her pain hurts me.

And I usually give in first, so we route around her pain. I hide my pain and she projects it, so it is hard for me to keep up a strategy that I can see and hear is causing her pain. I have to grit my teeth, shut down and suck it up to get through the pain. I can't route around it.

What if there isn't a route that can avoid the pain?

[manuel_moe_g]

I don't think there is a route that avoids the pain.

My imagination sometimes is awful to me. Not only do I imaging the worst possible outcome and suffer ahead of time for it, I also imagine a fantasy of a magical painless life that makes my reality seem worse in comparison, which increases my suffering.

If I just deal with the pain, exactly as it is, I am best off. There is no magic flying horse coming to rescue me and take me to a magical place where I can magically flourish. Imagining it, even though my mind is so darn good at imagining it, just increases my suffering.

[Lost_and_Found]

Hi There-
In reading your initial post, one of the first thing I noticed is how you have burdened yourself with processes not under your control. You stated you were responsible for your emotions. I don't believe that is so. We cannot predict emotions. They arise out of nowhere. There is no such thing as a wrong emotion (though we do have some control over whether we act on it. There were a couple of other things you seemed to feel responsible for--like your wife's happiness. I am sure your intention is good but if you think about, we are all responsible for our own happiness. You can't control others actions. Maybe avoid the partner's getting mad?

The following is only what I went through in my marriage. After about 12 years together, I was unhappy and wanted out. But I was really scared to go through the drama. I think I was more scared of what my life would be single. It took me a couple of years to even have the guts to acknowledge my true feelings. Then another year to get up the guts to tell my now ex. It wasn't easy but I am really glad I did it. However, if I felt like the marriage was salvageable I might have stayed. I am not sure. I think by the time I told him, I was already sure I wanted out. I was not able to share my feelings with him during the marriage. He had a wicked temper.

[weary]

You stated you were responsible for your emotions. I don't believe that is so.

if you think about, we are all responsible for our own happiness.

This is not a criticism of you, Lost_and_found, since I have heard/read this many times. But doesn't this seem inconsistent? Happiness is an emotion, right?

[weary]

I can't take much more of this. I am so exhausted. When is it going to end? The pain.
I oscillate between deep depression and feeling like I am so flawed, so broken. Such a failure that I deserve all of the discomfort, pain, burdens and not getting my needs met. That it Is my fault. I let people take advantage of me. I overextend myself. I put myself last and don't put my needs out there. I am afraid of disappointing others and being disappointed.

I oscillate between that depression/anxiety, which I have had for years (my whole life, really, but it has intensified as my life has gotten shittier and shittier) and RAGE, fueled by some amount of self-worth and self esteem (where did that come from?) that says that I am ok, and I am entitled to my feelings and I deserve to have my needs and wants expressed and met and I am so fucking angry at my wife, my father, my professional mentors for not helping and supporting me and for hurting me.

I don't know how to get out of this. I am the most avoidant person in the world. I can't even focus on these negative feelings long enough to make sense of them, they are so overwhelming. I just try to keep a lid on them so I don't lose my shit but it doesn't work anyway because something I'll take me by surprise that I can't avoid and then it all rushes in and takes me over. My therapist is a nice guy and has hoped some, but it's not working. I am so trapped, so stuck, so scared and sad and angry and helpless and hopeless. I'm too tired to keep fighting, but I can't give up either.

I listen to my wife have a meltdown about things that she is upset about that I am also upset about, plus the things that she is saying and the way she is saying them are upsetting to me, but I have to listen to her and comfort her even when it hurts m to do so, and there is no room there for my feelings and it keeps me from sleeping. I try to talk about my feelings tonight about things that is am upset about that don't have to do with her and suddenly I feel like I'm in an argument.... I know that she is trying to be supportive,but she is telling me all of the reasons that I shouldn't feel that way and she is raising he voice sitting two feet away from me as if it is an argument. Which causes me to shut down and say I don't want to talk anymore. Her style of communicating just makes me want to do that so often, and when I talk it makes me feel worse. And it's somehow all my fault.