Anxiety-based depression

[LimitedAdventure]

I have a goodly amount of toxic shame that prevents me from doing a whole lot of "look at me!" type stuff in my general life. So, I was hesitant to post an introduction.

But, since the theme here is You Are Not Alone, maybe me telling a little bit about me will help someone else out there feel not so much alone.

I am managing an anxiety-based depression that I've had all my life. My rap sheet includes (I just wrote this up for the benefit of myself and my therapist a few months ago so we could compare notes and check our scorecards):

Toxic Shame
Anxiety-based depression
poorly defined self-concept
negative visualizations
lack of emotional regulation
extreme automatic thoughts
(there are 2 or 3 more, I can't find my old journal file where I kept them, but you get the idea. There are so many, even I have trouble keeping track. Also, I probably oughta get on finding that .doc file!!)

So those are the things that I work on managing daily. Right now I'm beginning to focus my energies on my negative thinking, which is a lot more widespread than I originally thought. I have made pretty great progress in the last 5 years in neutralizing negative thinking as it pertains to me. But, my negative thinking is in every single one of my perceptions about work, life, and the world. And, my mind is burning valuable energy, wearing itself down, distorting everything into a negative, and once mental fatigue sets in, then it's game on for all the other dysfunction.

I know where I got it, we had a very negative family member who lived with us for many years, all through my younger years. And, that's where I learned to first expect negative thoughts, and then join in! And now that family member is gone, and I'm still alive, and I'm convinced that my negativity and, ensuing anxiety, have affected me in every area of my life professionally and personally. I have few friends, no close relationships, no romantic relationships. I think I'm exhausting. I heard Paul talk on a recent episode about how he thinks people in his life might find him exhausting, and I'd betcha anything they don't. Me, on the other hand. Have ya met me! Oh my. Congratulations, you haven't.

So, what I'm trying to work on now, in order to not be exhausting to people... I'm not looking to become an optimist, I just want the reflexive, pervasive shades of negativity that color everything that crosses my mind to stop. I want my perceptions of things to be neutral first. Not negative first and then I have to talk myself into neutral. Neutral is where it's at. Neutral is peace & rest & truth. I just want to see things just for what they are. Without putting any energy into evaluating them good or bad.

I'm currently reading The Power Of Now, which is a great book, but I'm looking for something now that is more focused on addressing the specific issue of negative perceptions. I'm about to start Mind Over Mood to try it out.

[manuel_moe_g]

Hello LimitedAdventure, welcome to our little forum! Please make yourself at home in the threads and topics here.

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I am glad you had the courage to post your introduction. I am working with my therapist to get rid of deep-seated shame in myself, so you are not alone.

Please take care, keep the lines of communication open, all the best, we here are cheering for you and for your greatest today and tomorrow!

[LimitedAdventure]

Wow that is so very kind! Thank you Manuel Moe G!!

[Sherlock]

poorly defined self-concept

You knowm I was having trouble about this until I just happened to look up what Gestalt therapy is--but I'll just make it short, cuz it's not about the therapy so much as it is about the revelation I had from a single theory.

The theory from Gestalt is, you define yourself by other people. Your interactions, and then how you differ from them.

It was like a fridge logic moment for me: "... Oh. DUH."

You see, I'd been spending the past few months at college, looking at other students maybe only a few years younger than me, most around my age, and thinking, "WHY? WHY AM I NOT LIKE ANY OF YOU?!" to the point where these people ANNOYED me, even though I didn't hate them. I just didn't GET it. WHY these petty things, WHY this immature behavior, WHY this mean behavior, etc.

This theory made me realize... oh, wow, duh: I'm fucking different. I'm a little darker, morbid, melancholy, but also according to my psychiatrist on a different intellectual level--not necessarily smarter because I no longer look down on people for that minor difference, but that I THINK differently. I'm empathetic, I'm very observant, I listen intently, I'm quiet, I have an active imagination, I take a lot of things very seriously while still being able to crack a joke once you break the ice with me.

Finally I realized: I DON'T HAVE TO BE LIKE THEM. I CAN BE ME. HOLY SHIT. It was so weird that I didn't realize that your identity comes from OTHER people, not just what's going on inside you. Because all that was going on inside me for a long time was: "Why can't I be more like X person??? They seem so happy..." etc.

It was so amazing because I didn't realize I'd had this problem for most of my life--just plain not relating to people or constantly comparing myself. Sure, I have some very good friends I relate to well, but they're also depressive in their own ways but not to my extreme. And they do totally differ from me, anyway! I always wanted to branch out, find a tribe...

Then I just realized, finally, I'm unique. I'm different. I allowed myself to think that, because before I didn't want to think I was some special snowflake; it's not about that. It's about valuing who you are, and who you are is how you're different from other people. At least that idea comforts me: I don't have to be like everyone else--and that doesn't make me an oddball, it makes me inherently fucking human.

When you say you aren't much fun to be around with... honestly it sounds like we could get along great. My problem is sort of like yours--I don't consider it always negative, just realistic. I think very hard about the state of the world and what would be better. I avoid negative thinking by avoiding looking down at people or hating things--I stay observant and always reserve judgment. Basically not a lot of people around are like that--it's always "that topic is too depressing." I GUARANTEE YOU there are people out there who LOVE to talk about Real Shit, whether it's what you go through, what the world is like, or just some morbid ass shit that's totally crazy. Whatever it is you have in your head, someone will find it fascinating... cuz sometimes they don't think of it themselves, or TOTALLY AGREE and you've found a kindred spirit.

Anyway, welcome to the forum! Sorry if I sounded rambly and self-involved, your post just made me remember that and I thought maybe it might help to think about.

[LimitedAdventure]

Hi Sherlock, it wasn't rambly at all, in fact... you blew my fucking mind!

Gestalt theory... oh... my... gawd.

The theory from Gestalt is, you define yourself by other people. Your interactions, and then how you differ from them.

I don't have close relationships with people, so I don't have those "mirrors" in my life through which I see myself!

Holy shit.

And, I see where you're coming from, Sherlock, you're realizing that you don't have to replicate other people, you can look at your differences between yourself and them as a postiive! Instead of a negative. And use those social mirrors that you have to help you and not to hurt you! That is so great!

And that's the thing about life, life is almost totally about our perceptions. We are so lucky. We get to choose how we perceive everything around us. In my case I'm just starting to work in therapy on why I'm perceiving things negatively. And, I've honed in on that, and so I need to move more into the area of observing and trapping those negative thoughts in the moment and replacing them with neutral ones.

That part of recovery & being an observer of your own thoughts is the most challenging. You don't pick when you go to work. Your mind picks.

Thank you for the kind words, Sherlock, and yes I bet we would get along great! The way you describe yourself you sound like exactly the kind of friend who would be heatlhy and good and fun to have. I would love to meet people who like to talk about Real Shit, and sometimes I feel like I have made that connection, but it's always at work, and I can never transition it to outside of work. So, maybe it's just that I'm a good person to look busy with. But I remain open to it. At the bookstore, at the coffee shop. I forgive myself for not having social connections with people who like to talk about Real Shit because they are rare. And, they already have their own friends.

The fucked up thing is, people make lifelong social connections in college. That's the perfect environment to do it because there is social interaction alllll day long, in class, at the library, in the dorms, in the bars.

Welp, when I was in college, I was pwned by an anxiety disorder, and I was manic, and I was usually in the dorm by myself self-medicating to get relief from said anxiety disorder. So, no social connections happened there, and I dropped out.

So, by the time I get into therapy in my mid 30s, and by the time coping mechanisms for my anxiety-based depression start to get traction, well, now I'm 40. And, nobody needs some new 40 year old hanging around. It's not like on TV.

I shouldn't say that... *few* people need some new 40 year old hanging around. And I accept that the odds of randomly connecting with those people are fairly slim.

So, there, how 'bout that for a self-involved ramble?! I win!!1!!1

Seriously, God Bless You for finding social connections in your life and then having that self-awareness to re-calibrate your perception of them... all the way from something that could have been toxic and perhaps even damaging over time, into something healthy!! Look at you! That is a pretty major change for anyone to accomplish. How long did it take you to evolve that?

[Sherlock]

Awesome. Glad to be of some service in your path to some reflection and self-discovery.

I didn't have friends until punk rock, I really feel like. I felt very alone throughout elementary school, and then I was homeschooled; it was when I was homeschooled that I did follow some natural puberty of knowing who I was, or wanted to be... like seeing a woman on TV with purple hair made me go, "I want purple hair. Period." Dyed my hair almost entirely throughout high school and still want to do it but a lot of things are blocking me from that--but one day I know I'll go back to it, for sure. Not just purple, either, all different colors.

That was sort of a digression on my main point which was punk rock. I think friends come from community; you share like-minded views. In school, you have to FIND those people. I'd imagine it'd be the same at work. Punk rock came to me--I had dyed my hair, a kid with a mohawk invited me out to a show, and I left thinking I had found my people. Not all of those people are my friends but a lot of them are, and it's tight-knit.

I would just say: think of a hobby or interest you have, and then expand from there by going out into the world, because for every interest and hobby there's a community. I'm also definitely not a snob about online relationships--having experienced a very long lasting one myself, it can be deeply gratifying (you have to be careful, of course--I'm just saying chemistry can exist on this medium). I mean, support groups are a community, too--but anything that's just plain a community, by my definition a gathering of people with shared interests, is good. The only way I made friends in punk rock was persistence--I kept going to shows. I barely introduced myself to people--now it's become this thing of, "I've seen you at shows before." And then we talk about shows we've been to, what other hobbies and interests we have, etc. I've made friends loads of different ways but I know just by sticking around and being present, people were interested on their own.

How long did it take you to evolve that?

I don't really think I'm fully out of the void yet, because I think most of my social problems stems from intense social anxiety as a kid as well as bullying.

I think the first time I made headway was my first therapist and one of our first sessions: I kept calling people sad. Everyone was just sad to me. And she told me, bright and happily, that I was "monkey-minding"--aka projecting my own emotional and mental state into people around me. Slowly I've come to realize just because you live a hard life or appear to doesn't mean you're sad.

The next step was really my own--I went through a psychotic break down when I was 20. By the time it ended, I felt stupid--after years of being called smart by all sorts of people, I felt like an idiot. I decided, when I had recovered more from it, I would reserve judgment on stupidity for really special cases, and realized everyone's perception of stupidity is different. I realized I hate people being cruel or rude or mean was so much worse than someone "stupid"; I've also just changed my own vocabulary. It's not crazy or stupid, it's ridiculous or ignorant, that sort of thing.

The thing I am currently overcoming is people from the past or people who I don't see often and what their perception is of me; I'm slowly getting over it. One person is someone who I used to love and admire so much even though he was younger than me--he was bright, kind, talented, hilarious, and outgoing. I found out through hearsay he may have date-raped a girl and it was like my soul was crushed. I'm reserving my judgment on him but definitely taking a few steps backwards--I really just don't know what to do about it because of my moral/ethical ground. Then there's the girl he raped, ironically: I once knew her as adorable, adventurous, friendly, and highly intelligent. Then a friend of mine dated her and she became abusive towards him, physically, psychologically and emotionally--and she changed, like she became superficial slowly but surely. I haven't seen her in so long I don't know what to make of her--since we're still friends on FB I'm almost afraid she judges me for not being "cool" enough, even though it's SO FUCKING STUPID (again, my perception of stupid) to be out of high school and still be wrapped up in what's "cool" or not.

So I still have this issue of wanting to be liked and staying very quiet because of it, and not reaching out to good friends out of fear of being a burden... but I really just don't harbor a lot of hatred towards the general definition of "humanity." I really focus my anger on the powers that be, the system, the people and laws that govern all of us and how much it effects all of us, which I don't view as people--it's all ideas that are totally objectionable and can be argued against.

Also I want to learn to really just let people go as "you are a fucking dickbrain, bye" without becoming a drama queen or quick to the trigger on that. I try to see the good in everyone but people have inadvertently hurt me by acting like dicks and my philosophy is to act not like a dick as much as possible--which of course leaves me susceptible for dicks and assholes to trounce all over me, which is why I just hide most of the time...

Anyway. I say if you have an interest or a hobby and you can hold conversations, you can make friends, and you don't have to force yourself to hang out with anyone just because you feel you won't have anyone else (another constant mistake I made until punk rock, again). It's probably hard at your age, to an extent I couldn't possibly imagine... but if you open your mind to anyone being your friend it becomes easier. Which contradicts what I said about forcing yourself to hang out with people just "because" but also because for me, just talking to random people, not even with the intent of friendship, always enlightens me on how different I am from everyone else.

I took some sleeping pills earlier so forgive me if that was a bit all over the place or at all incoherent.

[Sherlock]

Oh, something I forgot that I learned in therapy: you can't control other people's feelings or actions. Another fridge logic breakthrough for me. Just means if someone close to you is doing something you know is bad or hurtful, to them or others... well, you can do something, but ultimately that person is piloting themselves. It helps in the sense that I can let go of some of the "why is this person this way" worries and focus more on myself.

[LimitedAdventure]

Hi, Sherlock. Nope, not incoherent at all!! Ohhhh yes, the control thing! Fortunately that's one of the things I've been able to evolve. My control mechanism would activate in many kinds of situations, but always with people, and getting them to like me. "If I do this, then maybe they'll like me!" And holy shit just for anyone reading this who is carrying this burden, that does not work. And the reason it does not work is that people are the products of their own personal experiences, upbringings, values, traumas. There is no way to predict what they'll like or not. "Predict" is a nice word I noticed my subconscious subbed in for "control." So, I would say to anyone reading this, be kind, and be considerate, but do what comes naturally to you, and don't do specific things because you think certain people will like them, there's just no way to know exactly what those things will be. If that makes sense.

I got my control issues from being beaten up a lot and by trying to be funny or jokey with people, to put them in a good mood, so they wouldn't hit me. And it would work maybe half the time as I remember. But, it worked enough for me to keep doing it! And unfortunately I carried that thinking pattern waaaay into adult life. And it evolved to where I was controlling every conversation. And it was fatiguing for people. And, I think for me, too. I never asked open-ended questions, they would always be yes/no leading questions. And, there was never silence, I always had to fill it with something. So, no relationships, no friendships.

In fact, this was particularly damaging because that, let's call it a "strategy," replaced any social skills I might have acquired along the way. I'm just now trying to be an observer and have better two/way conversations with people, but it's like learning a second language. And, it's late, I'm in my mid 40s. But I'm trying.

As for not ever wanting to reach out to others for fear of being a burden, Paul just covers this in the current episode, which is so great. Using those magic words, "Can you help me with this" can bring you closer to people, because sometimes people actually like to feel needed! In fact, sometimes people even get their feelings hurt when they're not needed.

What do you think it is that keeps you from reaching out? Is it that you feel people will appreciate you never inconveniencing them? "Good ol' Sherlock, she never bugs me for anything, she's super quiet, I love having her around because I never even know she's there!" And, I'm kidding/guessing a little on that, but I have that. I also have a dusting of "But if I ask them for help, then I'll owe them, and it'll be at a time of their choosing, not mine." And then I go back to my old control issue. I also have a dash of being afraid that if I let someone in to help me with something, they'll become judgmental about what it is they're helping me with, like, why are you even doing this in the first place, what good will this do? I'm also afraid they'll say I'm doing it wrong, and I'm afraid it'll take three times longer than I said it would and when it's over they'll regret ever having met me. And they'll tell everyone what a stupid/pointless waste of time and energy I am and lookout for me, I might ask for something.

Wow, just writing all that out I'm noticing, that's really the depression circuitry firing up. The way depression makes everything so much more than just what it is. So for me I think my hesitancy is part negative thinking, part depression, part control. Wow, asking for help is where several of my non-productive thinking mechanisms intersect.

Well I guess I've gone on long enough for one post and I need to get to work. Have a great day Sherlock!!

[BlackHole]

Hi LimitedAdventure,

I also suffer with every single one of the afflictions that you mentioned, and it breaks my heart to know that someone, somewhere out there is feeling this way, too. I truly would never wish any of this upon anyone. Ever. It's nice to know that I'm not alone, but at the same time I feel it unnecessary for others to suffer. I'm glad you're here.

[BlackHole]

I didn't have friends until punk rock

Sherlock,

Punk rock was where I found sanctuary as well. My mother was a single mother and we moved around a lot. I never got to put down roots anywhere, I had very few friends, I was (and still am) painfully shy, my father seemingly forgot that I even existed by the time I was 5, and I knew pretty much right away that my brain didn't function like most others'. I was born broken.

The only thing I ever liked about my abusive wicked stepmother was that she was the one who introduced me to punk. And then it was on and crackin'! The clothes, the hair, the attitude, the way(s) of thinking! I was different, and punk rock said that that was a-okay. Now, mind you, I struggled to fit in for the longest. I didn't WANT to be different. It wasn't until my late 20's that I began to like my own unconventional way of thinking. Nonetheless, it is punk rock that has helped me through every painful step in life. It is a subculture and a tight-knit community that transcends any and all differences.

When I'm feeling sad: "Sorrow" by Bad Religion

When I'm feeling cross: "Rise Above" by Black Flag

And when I'm feeling proud: "Punk Rock Girl" by The Dead Milkmen

There's a song for every feeling.