Hello and Hi!!

[dare i say it]

Hey Algernon,

Thanks for thinking of me. The answer to your question is YES, I do feel there is something about mindfulness, meditation, and Zinn's message that are calling to me.

If there is such a thing as a "bad meditator", I'm it. I don't fall asleep. I just can't seem to let go of whatever control I have left over things in my life. It's hard for me to feel emotionally safe in that moment because if I stop running away from how I feel and just let my mind go wherever it goes, I feel intensely sad. Or angry or scared, but usually very sad.

Okay, that last paragraph deserves a few specifics. The things that hurt the most are that I'm unemployed, I've struggled establishing a career, I've had little success with dating, I've been quite depressed and anxious for most of my life, I have 1 friend, and I have a really low opinion of myself. The more I get into mindfulness, the more these painful thoughts and feelings bubble up, and maybe I'm doing it wrong but it's just really a strong negative reinforcer when as soon as I get into the right state, tears come to my eyes and I'm overwhelmed by emotion. I'll keep working on this though and gathering ideas from my therapist. I'd love to hear your suggestions as well.

[algernon]

Hey Hey, dare i say it!!

I lost a big spiel trying to post a response to you. Lost it by the webpage asking me to log on again. I've done that a few times and now that I've revealed my blunder, time to compose my future posts on a document and then paste it here if I finally learn from this! It was a good posting to you and at least I wrote it which helps me to get these things down in my brain.

Sorry I lost it, dare, but I didn't flip like in the past when work was lost in such a silly way.

For lack of additional time to approximate that long posting lost, please realize that there is no such thing as a "bad meditator" as Zinn himself assures. To choose those negative words even as a possibility does not serve you.

Also, basic "still" meditation as I've just done for 23 minutes, is Zinn's advice to anchor the more frequent time spent in "mindfulness' please remember.

Now I'm going for walk, mindfully I'll practice. I hope you take to the video, dare. It really reached me on this wonderful subject.

Again I thank our forum author who introduced me to Jon Kabat Zinn and Paul G and you, dare i say it. This interlock of positive humanity has a wonderful power for healing!

[dare i say it]

I lost a big spiel trying to post a response to you. Lost it by the webpage asking me to log on again. I've done that a few times...

Talk to manuel_moe_g about something called "lazarus." It's been a life-saver for him. I'm on my way somewhere and I want to have a little more time when I write back so I'll do that later.

[dare i say it]

You're very kind, Algernon. it makes me feel good to know that I can connect to someone on the other side of the internet in a meaningful way. I'm sorry you lost your post. That has happened to me before too. It can be quite frustrating and discouraging for me.

You seem to know a thing or two about about mindfulness meditation. How much work have you done with it? Where did you learn what you know?

[algernon]

Hey dare!

Not much experience with meditation OR mindfulness despite my raves about it.

Big bestseller was an old book called "Transcendental Meditation" around 1970 was the first I heard of it. Then bits and pieces ever since but no practice really, til lately. I think the real challenge is to do sit-still meditation with some regularity as Zinn instructs, which takes dedicated time. Mindfulness as I understand it, is practiced by holding the "now" state of being while you are involved with a simultanous activity such thing as walking or eating, and this allows the practice to be taken any time you care to apply it.

I trust the advice that it all gets easier with more and more practice.

[dare i say it]

I trust the advice that it all gets easier with more and more practice.

I'll have to trust in that myself. I've been looking into mindfulness meditation through YouTube videos of talks by Jon Kabat-Zinn. Last night I was watching one where he emphasized how difficult the work of meditation is. He mentioned that in his stress-reduction center they tell clients up front that, ironically, learning to be more mindful can be quite stressful! I will assume that the stress of learning new ways of being is eventually replaced by serenity.

Sometimes when I get too deep into "acceptance mode," I forget to take action on the things in my life that I do control. Have you ever found this to be a problem?

[algernon]

dare, I don't think I know what acceptance mode is as a memory detriment to those things we can control.

"Acceptance mode" as in accepting thought flow in meditation or mindfulness, do you mean?

I don't think this is a problem for me, but problems I have of other sorts, and I have growth.

Big things with my employment are starting. 15 years with the same organization, a superb work record supported by both second and third party sources.....and I'm quite sure I want to leave for various significant reasons, including red flag/poor safety ratings by the DOT on the company fleet. The details are not important, but the conviction I have is. Employment/business issues are a common source of stress and situational depression in this forum, so I'm not alone or in the worst of conditions to deal with it all........

And so mindfulness continues to be my practice and REBT (Albert Ellis)......lots of it over the last 14 hours of which less than two were spent asleep. I did really good to keep from anxiety (no panic at all) almost completely, constantly returning to the now and letting the inner attack of mere thoughts come and go. I've got a little habit going now that thoughts are merely thoughts mostly irrational, which diminish me if I don't stay mindful! Practice makes it fluid.

Zinn says a problem has two fields. One is the practical aspect like how will I manage my bills, fix the flat or deal with a lousy neighbor. The other is how we emotionally stress in response to the problem. Simple concept in reality, but obscure to me until I read it. Emotions are always a concern when problem solving, or should be.

Great to learn you watched Zinn's video, dare. I don't feel stressed much when mindfulness or meditation is practiced but rather I feel that something good is being learned with results that come pretty fast so long as I do the practice. I trust the work/return proportion.

[dare i say it]

Have you heard of the Serenity Prayer? I don't really pray anymore, but the sentiment of that prayer is something I go to when I need guidance. Basically, the idea is to accept the things you cannot change, have the courage to change the things you can, and have the wisdom to know the difference. Sometimes when I spend a lot of time with accepting things, I lose motivation for other important things I can actively do to change my life for the better.

It's not that active steps (like stepping outside of my comfort zone, or exercising, or tending to practical concerns) are the opposite of mindful acceptance. They aren't. It's just that I tend to go all-in with meditation, and then avoid doing other things that I really need to do to make my life better.

Also, sometimes when people suggest that I should "accept things as they are" or that "everything is exactly as it should be," my first reaction is confusion and that's followed closely by righteous indignation. i am very dissatisfied with the state of my life, and I would REALLY like to improve it. So, things are the way they are for now and I can accept that, for now, but I'm going to want there to be some change mixed in with that acceptance.

The stress that I feel when I'm trying to be mindful comes mostly from not liking what I find when I allow myself to notice how I think and feel. It can also be quite frustrating for me that my mind is so "unruly" in that it wanders no matter what I do.

I'm sorry to hear that there are major safety concerns with your employer. I think you mentioned in another post awhile ago that you drive a truck. Do I have that right? At least you're able to see the situation for what it is and you're looking at proactive steps you can take to deal with it.

[algernon]

Hey dare!!

The serenity prayer yes. It's good even for me, an agnostic. I have it posted physically by the house phone. I think it's absolutely consistent with meditation and mindfulness.

dare, your manners are superb I think. Thank you for reflecting on my work situation. I'm at a point where multiple indicators beckon a change, and a plan is underway. And one thing about it all...........

......I'm thinking different than before. First, I have some good thinking from "before" but there's NEW thinking that's good........and new. I credit those practices I do, that we discuss.

Also, sometimes when people suggest that I should "accept things as they are" or that "everything is exactly as it should be," my first reaction is confusion and that's followed closely by righteous indignation.

I know what you mean cuz I'm very literal taking and the second quote in your text quote is a bit ambiguous and I know we both know what is meant by it, but still, it can be taken illogically. I think lines like that can generate free thinking which must have some merit. At least it's fun.

I have no problem with the first quote in your text quote because I don't see it as restricting change but rather facing hard reality when it's not going away, because the decisions to come need rational assessments to stand upon.

The stress that I feel when I'm trying to be mindful comes mostly from not liking what I find when I allow myself to notice how I think and feel. It can also be quite frustrating for me that my mind is so "unruly" in that it wanders no matter what I do.

This was your quote that I was itching to address. I did meditation earlier and it was loaded with the "chatter" more than usual. Thoughts creeping in were of the variety dealing with the work issue and not surprisingly.......I simply took to my teaching and went back to breathing awareness and when the intrusive thoughts faded, I let them.........just let them go.

I know the masters would agree when I remind you to simply avoid your inner judgments and when they rise, give them their glance and let them go.....return to the breathing..........in.......out. Mantras are helpful here and I think that's why they are used. Take a mantra that fits and use it.

I have tinnitus for 12 steady years now, in one ear, hateful when it began......I was, I suppose traumatized into depression......and I learned to live with it and I have......air leaks in the truck are sometimes MASKED by my "dog whistle" sounding tinnitus and I have to crook my head or switch to the other ear in the determination........BUT.......I've been using the "tin-ring" to anchor upon when meditating, and it works. Those fucking thoughts that like to grind my spirit get the stinky boot fast when I just let them go by my devices. Find something to GROUND yourself when meditating, a mantra and the breathing cycle are the key as you know.........but PRACTICE is the ultimate. We never GET there, we just practice. And for my short time, practice has paid me back.

Hey dare!! I'm typing mostly off the home row keys now......mostly......I'm less than two months with a typing instructor software program and there too practice is everything.

Be a NUT and practice all the time. I'm a fan of Harry Houdini and in one of his biographies there was a reference to a card trick magician who practiced TEN HOURS a DAY to get perfectly fluid. Musicians too. Athletes. All building the habit for the harvest of the habit.

dare, I do not ignore that you say, "no matter what I do" to your mind's incessant wandering, but I must avoid endorsing it.

[dare i say it]

Algernon, thank you for your thoughtful and thorough response! It's nice to hear that you're finding positive results. That's very encouraging to me.

I suppose when I talk about feelings of stress and frustration, it's important for me to also mention that I'm not letting these feelings totally guide my behavior. I continue to do things even when they are difficult. In fact, I sometimes take the point of view that "if it's too comfortable, then I might be doing something wrong." I know meditation is supposed to give me inner peace, and it usually does. Still, awareness is like walking through a minefield for me. I don't have much physical pain, but my emotions at any given time, in the present moment, are quite unpleasant. With unruly thoughts, I can sometimes let them drift away. However, with the guidance of my therapist, I'm trying to "sit with" some of the painful emotions and allow them to be "processed."

So these are all genuine feelings that come up when I try to practice mindfulness. Since they're genuine, I'm not going to just ignore them and pretend they aren't there. I guess I bring them up because I'm trying to gauge if my experience is typical or if it's just me. Either way I'm still going to practice mindfulness meditation. Thanks for taking the time to read my posts. It's helpful to me to have this outlet.